I don’t think you can give up on ignition management and reduction.. that is one of the core tenants of fire prevention.. fewer ignitions fewer chances for large and damaging fires. The rail road has done a great job at almost completely eliminating accidental ignitions. It was common to go to several fires a year started by trains and rail maintenance. That ended in about 2000 after the Storrie Fire.
As for the pre-conditions of a major fire. Just about everywhere in this state there are two or three days a year that the conditions line up for a disaster. That is the fact of living in this state.
We are not taking the “fire adapted” communities idea seriously.. that is missing component.
It is a function of landscaping, building construction, urban planning and ignition management.
The funny thing is that I was on the Topanga and Green Meadow fire’s in 93 and was told they were career fires…
I agree on the importance of prevention, and you’re spot-on about not fully leaning into the ‘fire adapted communities’ concept. Unfortunately, a lot of prevention activities PG&E and the other utilities are doing have be focused on covering their asses from starting fires with their equipment, but not much on being tactically-useful in the bigger picture - e.g. leaving tons of slash in the field, and being very limited in scope and scale.
I guess it depends on your definition of what can or cant influence outcomes & the scope and scale of your perspective. Would a full reservoir by itself put the fire out - nope. Would the reservoirs water have helped individual outcomes and/or assisted in the fire fight - imo absolutely yes. But hey what do i kno..
(layman here) Even with full and available reservoirs, can water pressure be maintained when literally thousands of pipes feeding homes and neighborhoods have been breached, melted into open, unregulated outlets?
Water systems are built to provide the service needed for the area they serve.
Firefighting needs are addressed in the design.
Unfortunately the fire conditions presented in these wind driven conflagrations are NOT addressed.
To do so would require a ridiculous amount of water tanks, reservoirs, and pumps that no one would want to pay for or look at out the windows of their homes
There was a previous post saying that at least one SF bay area community, after devastating fires with water problems, layed a parallel system of pipes to support their hydrants alone and separate from their domestic plumbing.
I dont remember the community and couldnt spend much time researching. Even if it was SF and geared toward earthquakes, it seems it solves the problem of too many open spigots or broken pipes on the domestic mains hindering flow on the hydrant mains.
Hydrant pressure is a real issue… We experience it when either multiple buildings burn exposing each pipe to free flow.. when the system is reliant on pumps or infrastructure which is shut down or fails during the firefight or when too many homeowners turn on sprinklers and there is too much demand on the system.
Creating a parallel system is a solid idea. We proposed that multiple times.. it always comes down to money. The basic premise is that a looped system is more resilient and provides higher volumes of water across a broader area which then helps with development and ISO( which is a joke).
Multiple times during large fires that were threatening communities we asked the local water district if they would shut down service to the core of the community or have people on hand to help shut down areas that had burned down.. mixed results. One was on board.. two others refused citing legal issues.
I have always advocated for a separate standalone series of hydrants or a basic system tied to one large tank that we could access with water tenders. In an urban conflagration scenario it would be very beneficial.
IMO..
HOLY WORDS I CANT SAY ON THIS MF’N FORUM!!!
Again with the trying to make re-kindle and/or holdover two separate things in this situation!
Again with the 100mph wind theory!
And, it seems this dude has zeroed in on Chaparral roots since they are one of very few species that extend down 25 feet or so into the ground. Thats fine BUT to try and conjure up a story about how winds can pull heat to the surface from 25 feet below the surface is 100% fantasy! That wasn’t what happened because that isnt what happens in real life. Its a fictitious scenario being used as a straw man to deflect / misdirect from the facts and questions being put to him. Failing to address the issues we all know exist (crappy containment, lack of mop up, limitations bcuz of the state park objectives, etc) has become sickening - i no longer understand it.
Somebody needs to find whoever is teaching that b.s. and put a stop to it / fix that curriculum asap! Sorry not sorry - he needs to re-take S-190 & S-290 (instructed by a wildlander) to learn the basics of how ground fuels burn, consume & smolder.
This just keep getting more and more embarassing & sad. I still hold tight to the statement that 1st responders do not wake up and say “im gonna make bad decisions today” OR “i’m going to work to get people killed today” and for sure the majority of this department’s rank/file are top notch humans doing their best every day. With that said there is / has been a nasty slippage in their corporate culture that has to be rooted out and fixed going forward…
P.s. They might need to re-look/re-tool whatever damn matrix they use to staff & overhaul/mop-up all wildland situations for good measure…
End of report..
Absolutely agree. As I said in a much earlier post, they circled the lawyers and took a tremendous amout of time to strategize how they would frame this incident. Then attack it aggressively in the media
Remember, say something often enough and for a long enough time and it will come true
Sad times when repitition of lies esablishes “truth”. Disgusting is how I see the potential intensity of human gullibility. “Gulliber’s Travels, an imaginary tail”.
I can only begin to imagine how severely this all PO’s you professionals whose realtime performance on the job depends entirely on accurate assessment of undeniable truths in action.
He has lost credibility with those he leads because of the word salad he and his handlers continue to peddle.
The longer this continues, the longer it will take this department to recover.
He is rapidly becoming a “Lapdog, Used Car Salesman” for the Leadership that selected him.
Former Chief Crowley for all her faults, demonstrated more Leadership during the heat of the battle and became a martyr for it. Than this guy has to date with hindsight and 20/20 vision. Shame on you Chief Moore.
When rules & sop’s override and conflict with common sense.
Gotta get that BAER work done or people will run amok and go “off-trail”
Maybe next time close the fire area while smoke is still showing AND wait to pull fuel over the lines until no smokes / heat showing for at least a burn period or several?
credibility with those he leads because of the word salad he and his handlers continue to peddle.