This logic truly baffles me, so let’s just not do anything anymore because something might happen??? I don’t get it
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True, don’t close them. Enter camp, and enjoy as long as no first responders are responsible to evacuate and risk their life for you.
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You clearly do not understand the risks and factors involved so maybe you should not weigh in?
Without being confrontational this isn’t something comparable to kids going to play rough get hurt so they shouldn’t play, this is more like if they play and make a mistake it’s highly probable many lives will be forever impacted.
The more kids playing the more likely the mistake.
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Recognizing that this question may well further inflame the debate, I would truly be interested in knowing what the best course of action should have been. As I have told subordinates too many times to count, bring an alternate solution to the table. Criticism of a direction or plan is ok however, that comes with a responsibility to provide an alternative plan. The strategy of doing little to nothing and hoping for a positive outcome has not turned out well this year and there is nothing to suggest that it will get better until there is some substantial rainfall to begin FM recoveries. These are by in large, 1,000 and 10,000 hour fuels which are well below critical FM levels. While there are good woodsmen still around, there are becoming fewer and fewer who know how to properly and safely manage themselves in the public lands. The person responsible for the Rim Fire was in fact a hunter, who had no business being anywhere near the public or private land for that matter. I personally enjoy the full use of the public lands including: Fishing, hunting, dirt bike riding and shooting. But the conditions and the 95+ percent of people who use these lands, today do not have, nor do they care to have, the skills which we traditionally have labeled woodsmen.
So, with all of these elements in mind, I ask, what would your solution to this very non-normal condition be?
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Any particular reason why it’s closed?
Read through the discussion for your answer…
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@Abracy81 - @Eweturn said it was close, not closed.
@Marine2EMT - the original question was about the church & it’s availability for sleeping in the parking lot, not the various forest closures.
(Edit… & now I see that particular question has been moved/deleted. No wonder it’s confusing)
Many tangents on this thread 
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Wow! So I see a lot of profiling here! Basically because of some jack wagon hunter that started a fire, you are going to condemn the group as a whole??? I guarantee you the vast majority of the hunting community would throw the book at those individuals who treat our resources so carelessly! Further, I’m sure most would turn in that individual! Most hunters are probably better equipped and more savvy in the woods than anyone on here…but there I am profiling, my apologies! Fact is, we do pay for the privilege to use our public lands. We have had many droughts, some more severe than others. Please by all means, ban camp fires, open flames and even smoking on the forest. But don’t turn our most precious resource into what it was in the Old World that our ancestors left!
A few things to consider…
- if resources are so slim, whose going to enforce said order?
- I’m right on the Oregon border, literally go back and forth. But if I had an Oregon tag in my pocket, I’m ok! Apparently the forest isn’t as dry a hundred feet to the North!
- anytime a hunter or anyone goes into remote areas, they are certainly taking risks.
- so are we closing all freeways that go through national forests? I think we probably should! Several large fires have been started by vehicles these days…exhausts or dragging a chain! Not to mention the Carr Fire - started by a retired Calfire employee….hmmm…
- the Salt Fire was apparently a vehicle on I-5. Probably should close I-5 north at Fawndale and I-5 south at Ashland!
You ask for a solution…how about this…
- Ban any kind of open flame…PERIOD!
- require anyone traversing or using forest service land be equipped with s shovel, fire extinguisher and a piss pump. Now that seems reasonable don’t it?
- perhaps even require people to get a permit before entering or using public land…I’m not necessarily for this one, but if it would pacify some, then do be it.
I’ve probably offended some. If so, I apologize. But I hope this will get some thinking and see that there is a solution, short of taking it all away!
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This forum gives the ability for people to post their opinions who are not fire personnel so if you see someone categorizing you that you don’t like it may not be an expert, also just because they are in fire does not mean they are well experienced.
Furthermore if they are experienced it does not mean they properly sorted the good from the bad throughout their career to provide you with #1 a solid ability to interpret the information they see or hear, and #2 properly implement a action/plan or offer guidance that teaches/informs without somehow disinfecting people.
Also please remember that no matter what you say or do you will never please everyone. So your plan becomes one that places the importance on life/property safety and preservation.
This decision was one involving many people with input and knowledge far beyond your average woodsman or fireman but of a collective who have experience mobilizing thousands of people and equipment in a days notice and organizing them to work together to achieve a singular objective.
Remember while doing this they are making difficult decisions and taking responsibility for the lives of the civilians affected as well as the fireman they are asking to do the work.
Let me offer up an olive branch as well for the whole community. There are sound key pivotal people in EVERY AGENCY! We need to pull them together as much as possible on these decisions. Because there are misguided people in EVERY AGENCY! The same way there are bad apples in every profession.
Let’s stop pointing fingers at the Division on the map and give me a Lat/Long to the issue, low resolution information is not good for targeting change or dealing with problems.
This is a simple statistical analysis and if you’re having trouble with the decisions please remember this forum is mainly for us fire resources to pass information to one another on active incidents so maybe as a bystander some folks should go read through a few of these large incidents threads along with a few small ones, see how much of it you understand and try and notice the key players tone and leadership qualities and carry them forward with your posting here.
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Dozer Keith,Very good points for discussion. And I agree sometimes unilateral decisions are made without looking at other solutions.
Banning any sort of open flame is of course a no brainer, but will people listen? Who will patrol not only established campsites, but dispersed camping with resources stretched so thin?
My thought is a lottery of sorts, where people put in a request to be in a specific place at a specific time, to hunt, fish, whatever. They must identify themselves, and exactly where they plan to be. That way there is a record of who is where, and if they do not comply with with safety regulations, they will be asked to leave. I know my idea is primative and maybe undoable, but I think brainstorming can lead to a workable solution.
My basis is to make people accountable and responsible for their actions, while permitting some degree of normal activities to take place.
Main thing, from my perspective, is to not allow what we perceive as “our rights” to be on Public Lands become a “hot spot”, when our Public Lands are suffering such incredible devastation right now. We may have to put our personal needs/wants aside and do our part to ensure that our children and grandchildren can enjoy the natural beauty we are blessed with. Sometimes personal sacrifices are necessary for the good of the whole. As well,the issue of how these fires started, whether it is lightning, forest mismanagement etal, is not where our focus needs to be at present. We need to come together and think about what is beat for the FOREST now.
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I have zero problem violating this order. I’m an adult and can make my own decisions when it comes to safely to recreating in the national forest. I am of course a public land owner and have no problem pleating my case to the 2 LEOs assigned to my forest.
I have seen first hand from both sides that these orders do nothing. Ask any Leo who is dispatched to “report of forest service closure violation” how fast they move. Even when it comes from the line.
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I am sure there are many people who have "no problem " violating this order.
And you may be one of the responsible ones who knows how to conduct themselves.
No one likes regulations. But it seems the some of the ones who are the most opposed to “regulations” are the ones who are unable to self regulate. Just look what happened to Joshua Tree when the Principal was out of the office during the Government Shutdown.? A freefor all with Joshua Trees destroyed, human waste eveywhere. Total disrespect of our Public lands. How do we distinguish those who are capable of self regulating and those who could care less?
When does the forest have a right to rest and heal from our personal enjoyment?
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I agree with you, although I did not see the large amounts of human waste at Joshua tree, I saw it in my backyard. I’m hoping you did as I did abd reminded those folks that was unacceptable. Most of them complained about the pit toilets being locked and were unaware of how to properly sh*t in the woods. Most of them were from town just trying to get away which I support.
Undo “Forest Closures” do nothing. Everyone from boots on the ground to the folks at the region level know this. Unfortunately I’m going to offend someone but I’ll say it anyways, those in power that came up thru the ranks on the ‘ologist route love this policy and will die on this hill. But I’m all for it, close the first so me and family have more elbow room.
I’m still going fishing on days off.
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Amen, brother.
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But it’s not just because of high fire danger is it?
Why is it that people would believe it’s that simple.
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Backpacker here. I spend a lot of the year climbing mountains and taking photos, mostly in the Sierra. Long time lurker on this and some of the forums which preceded it. Appreciate all the info you share.
Tonight, I was supposed to be high on a peak under the light of a big moon, but I canned my weekend trips, purely out of choice. Figured I should finally sign up for an account. First post.
Fire is just one of the forces of nature I have to take into account, along with snowfall, avalanche, water sources, thunderstorms, traffic jams, you name it. I’ve been through many burn zones before and after and have had many trips diverted. I’ll give a friendly wave to every fire crew I pass, but better yet, I stay the hell out of their way so they can do their job. Much respect.
Maybe I can make a worthy contribution from time to time from my boots on the ground perspective. For example, these solutions were suggested.
From a backpacker’s perspective:
The ban suggested in #1 has been in effect for many months, apart from gas stoves which are relatively safe.
The CA Campfire Permit says you have to have a shovel and ample water and put your damn fire out cold. Most of us frown on campfires in the first place. That pretty much covers #2. Fire extinguishers would be too much weight for a backpacker, but you guys prompted me to get one for my car, just in case.
#3: We’re required to obtain and carry wilderness permits to hike and spend a night in pretty much any place you’d want to visit. Nobody likes it, and the websites where you get your permits suck, you just gotta learn the ropes and deal with it.
I can’t speak for all backpackers, and this is only a backcountry perspective. Not everyone follows the rules, and right now there aren’t a lot of rangers in the wilderness. But over the last decade, I’ve been watching a lot of forests turn from green to gold, thinking yo, this ain’t supposed to look like Appalachia in autumn.
Thanks again for everything I have leaned here and your daily reports. Be safe.
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Backpacker…you bring valid points. I apologize. My “solutions” were pointed more towards the general camper/forest user, not the wilderness backpacker. You have a whole different a greater set of risks and hazards that come with your particular use of the forest, and wilderness areas in particular. As you stated, your use of the forest, regardless of current events, has many elevated hazards & risks.
Also, as a side note, there are currently no restrictions or restrictions on day users to the forest (I.e. shovel, extinguisher or piss pump etc). I’m referring to the average user - not wilderness backpacker or camp fire permits….
I was simply trying to point out that there are options short of completely closing the forests. Do people, regardless of what they are doing need to be prepared and educated on how to get along in those environments? ABSOLUTELY! There are risks associated with damn near everything. I mean how did we grow up without cell phones, tablets or even on-x maps??
Additionally, I have no issues with closing the forests down where they are actively engaged in firefighting.
An earlier post from another went on raving about the leadership and the whole fire fighting effort etc…I chose not to respond last night, as I was tired and probably read into it, but….
Please do not assume you know my background, knowledge or skills, especially when I disagree with you. I am very aware of what this forum is about and the value of the info provided. I have not posted on any other threads, simply for that reason. But I have been monitoring closely and appreciate the level of info shared. This particular thread is not one of those “Fire intel” threads. Thus, I chose to chime in. I am also dismayed when I see some others that disagree have their posts deleted. I was hoping this would be a bit better forum where people could respect other’s opinions, even if different. However that seems a lost art these days.
Last few points….
What about urban sprawl? You have people building houses in the mountains where they never have before. This disrupts ecosystems, reroutes migration routes and at times takes away valuable winter range. I do not condemn those for that - heck I’m a bit jealous! But on every fire that threatens these communities you have a number of these folks ignore evacuation orders. I do not need to go into detail on the drain on resources and risks to our first responders that this poses!
In closing, I think the vast majority of us that are upset about this closure are fairly like minded. We enjoy the great outdoors and the feeling and enjoyments of our freedoms in ways that most do not understand. We go into remote areas knowing that help is far away or perhaps unreachable. We do not rely on “big brother”. As one post stated, our whole year revolves around this particular time of year. The preparation, planning, work scheduling/vacation, money & time invested is no small thing. Typically speaking it is a legacy that is passed down for many generations. More and more I see families out here and I could not be happier! That is something that is certainly dwindling in our current society. The Rugged Individualism spirit is a very strong feeling for those of us who partake in this way of life.
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As someone who lives adjacent to USFS land, it feels silly that I can’t legally walk, run or MTB on that land. As someone with a long-time family cabin currently threatened by the Caldor, I can also see why the USFS would want to hit the brakes and give themselves as much maneuvering room as possible over the next few weeks. I can think of many solutions I’d consider to be “better” than the current closure, because they involve nuance - but I also understand that nuance is not easy to pull off on short notice.
This is the second year in a row of forest-wide closures, it’s pretty clear they will become a new normal. The USFS pulled a big red handle because that was one of the only tools in their box, and I’m glad I’m not the one who had to make that decision. I do hope they will take the off season to develop more tools. Possibly a sliding scale of activities going from open flame to overnight camping to day use. Possibly closing more remote, hard-to-egress areas while still allowing access from trailheads at public roadways. Possibly something else, I’m not a public policy expert. But it does seem like they’d benefit from developing some kind of progressive public safety closure plan for future years.
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