Community Wildfire Initial Attack Q:

So, there are some dynamics in motion with your approach. The idea of a 4000 gal off road vehicle is going to have some limitations, just like other apparatus. Many bridges in the rural parts of CA are rated at 26,000 lbs. less, so weight becomes a significant factor to consider. The State (CalFire) who also performs fleet management and specifications for some county agencies such as Napa County Fire, is moving away from the larger capacity water tenders primarily due to the lack of manueverability and the weight. There is a high degree of trade offs involved in wildland equipment and placement. The larger the piece of equipment is, the less manueverable it is so it takes longer to insert it into an effective and safe point. Also, once a piece of equipment is off a maintained road, the greater degree of risk of slipping off the road, either from a tight turn or poor road bed compaction and natural erosion. These are key elements of consideration for the command staff as well as the operator when inserting any piece of equipment into a hot line area. Effective safety zones and retreat are also elements in those decisions. As for tracked vehicles such as skid-gens or similar, they are effective to a degree but they are slow moving relatively speaking and require a transport vehicle to bring them to the incident. In a fast moving fire such as the Camp Fire, it would be unlikely that they could keep pace to be effective. Placement ahead of the main fire could provide some assistance but again in the case of the Camp Fire, ingress into the areas where they could be effective becomes an issue.

As you poke around this form, you will see a fairly lengthy discussion about the new Cal OES Type 6 engines that are being ordered.

There is absolutely no single magic silver bullet for any of this but the biggest and probably the most difficult element to control is that the people who live in the WUI area, have to become more invested in their own defensible space. Those who are diligent about their clearance stand a far better chance of retaining their home and possessions. Preparation also includes a primary and secondary exit plan if there is a situation that requires rapid exit. If available a third exit strategy is a good to have as well.

Unfortunately, it has been my experience that there is a tremendous lack of common sense in people who have left the urban living environment to a more rural living situation. Those of us that grew up in rural setting are raised to understand that wildland fires are a fact of life and that we remain prepared for it at all times but the urban transplants have a much more difficult time relating to that fact.

My advice is to be prepared, both physically and mentally, then as calmly as you can exit the area quickly and not wait to be told to do so. All first responders are committed to the safety of the public but the facts are, these scenarios such as the Camp Fire, resources are often thin, particularly in the early stages of the incident.

None of my commentary is meant to be disparaging or critical of your ideas but the reality is that there is no perfect answer or perfect piece of equipment that will solve each and every situation.

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Just for a small bit of info also CAL Fire launches aircraft at the outset of a new incident. This will be done even without confirmation of a fire. The idea being that flying the planes and cancelling them is still a less expensive practice than allowing for a fire to get out of control. They do not “wait for the fire to get out of control.” In fact in many part of the state the aircraft will be attacking the fire before ground units arrive at scene. The standard for calf fire is to have aircraft over a fire anywhere in the state within 20 minutes.

However I do like that there are people out there such as yourself that are attempting to think outside the box and come up with inovative new ways to fight these monster fires.

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2ndLine1stWord
#FORESTRY

This guy gets it :point_up:

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1 dept
21 different ways of doing business
#FORESTRY

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Hi Keith,

Thanks again for such a detailed reply, I had no idea about the 26,000 weight limit for instance. Entirely agree there is no silver bullet to wildfires, and we have lived with wildfires for millennia and will do for the foreseeable future - personal and property protection including fuel management and readiness in the WUI is indeed the 100% goal - but when you look at the worldwide problem including Europe / Australia -

I subscribe the excellent Wildfire News of the Day and I’m hoping that with the speed of advance of technology and communications that the number of wildfires that quickly get out of control worldwide could possibly be 30% contained quicker in say 5-10 years time which will hopefully reduce the amount of acreage burnt and in turn reduce the suppression costs

Thanks again Keith, you are clearly a subject matter expert that I hope is high up in the decision-making process for keeping people safe!

@Dozer_Keith - is there a way to speak offline? it would be great to share some further thoughts but cant see a way of messaging you via the forum other than publicly? Does it open up with more posts etc?

@WWR…No, I don’t consider myself to be a subject matter expert. I am just a guy, who has been at this a minute or two and have tried to observe and learn the entire time. There are a lot of outstanding people on this forum that each have a wealth of knowledge and experience. One of the best aspects of a forum, such as this one, is that it brings together the various levels of knowledge, experience, and perspective to form the intelligence sharing that goes on here.

As you begin your time here, don’t limit yourself to one person’s viewpoint but rather take it all in. I have a certain viewpoint that is developed from my set of experiences as does everybody else. That by no means, makes my viewpoint better than anyone else’s, it’s just different. While there is a tool that enables private message on this platform, I prefer to use this forum for it’s intended use, which is to share intelligence information and ideas amongst everyone and for everyone’s benefit. The Moderators are extremely diligent about making sure that the right information is properly aligned with the subject and cleaning up the post which are off-topic or inappropriate. They are also working people, so they also have a ton of knowledge and experience.

Stay alert and enjoy this great forum!

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I have noticed that there is a greatly increased equipment component dispatched on wildfires this year, compared to times past. Fires are caught much quicker and staying smaller. The higher fuel moisture this year seems to be helping also. When I was up in the mountains of Central CA, the forest looked to be in much better health that in recent past.

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I have to sadly agree. I went up to a training in Cohassett in January and my heart sank. Not 12 miles from Paradise and very few of the houses had clearance. They were even evacuated during the event!

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One reason you are seeing more equipment sooner is there hasn’t been much activity and everybody is on base.

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Lessons from Australia - we are not the only one’s in the world working on initial attack solutions:

See the guidelines below that were going to be implemented in Southern California as a way to save property.
They were not because of potential lawsuits and danger to the public after the 2009 “Black Saturday fire" that killed 173 people in Australia.

Australia 2009 - Black Saturday Aftermath:

Modifying the “Stay and Defend” or “Leave Early” policy to account for the most severe wildfires includes ‘Leaving early is still the safest option’. Australians have long been proud of their fierce self-reliance, which is illustrated by the country’s wildfire policy. Prior to 2009, residents in remote rural areas were urged to evacuate their property if fire threatened, but those who felt they could adequately defend their property were permitted, even encouraged, to do so.

This official policy, called “Stay and Defend or Leave Early,” or SDLE, came under intense scrutiny following the worst wildfires in Australian history, which occurred in the southern state of Victoria on February 7, 2009 — “Black Saturday.” Those fires killed 173 people, 113 of them in or near buildings, and called into question the wisdom of the stay-and-defend model. A royal commission was called to examine the circumstances surrounding those fires, and in July 2010 the commission issued a five-volume report of its findings.

The report did not recommend the total elimination of SDLE, but asserted that the policy should not apply in severe fire conditions. “The stay or go policy failed to allow for the variations in fire severity that can result from differing topography, fuel loads, and weather conditions,” the report stated. “Leaving early is still the safest option. Staying to defend a well-prepared defendable home is also a sound choice in less severe fires, but there needs to be greater emphasis on important qualifications.”

Other report recommendations include:

  • Strengthening fire warnings and improving their timeliness and dissemination;
  • Providing more practical and realistic options such as community refuges and wildfire shelter, with more assisted evacuation for vulnerable people;
  • Providing improved public education about fire behavior and house defendability;
  • Improving the deployment and use of roadblocks;
  • Ensuring that fire agencies have thorough processes for identifying and approving particularly dangerous activities such as back-burns;

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This may be the year that convinces a lot of people living in the trees to decide how many trees do I really need close to my house. Hopefully a lot of people will be motivated to do more clearing of closed canopy near houses.

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I agree. There is monumental amount of work to do. Clearing the canopy never hurts, but defensible space on its own didn’t help much in Paradise. Lots of places had good defensible space, but 90% of the structures in town still burned. We gotta make sure people do home hardening in addition. Things like taking the gutters off your house, adding rock or concrete for the first couple feet from the house, installing new vent screens, screening or enclosing under decks, and just basic maintenance like repairing weathered facia boards and making sure the roof edge is clear of moss, etc. I spent a couple months working in Paradise after the Camp Fire and one thing I didn’t see was any poorly-maintained houses.

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Till you reduce the biomass in the forested areas, and improve the urban interface, its just gonna be a yearly cycle, government doesnt fix this. When insurance says no more in california and power companies abandon service areas.
Make land clearing property tax deductible, enforce clearing, double prevention not suppression.
Sorry, but its not 747s and helitankers but viable fuel reduction and prevention.

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Sound advice. Watching cars drive thru fires you can see that the embers are everywhere and that is all it takes to find a little stash of kindling close to the house and get it started or leaves in the gutters, bone dry from summer.

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As one of the few survivors of the camp fire I can tell you defensible space is everything. Trimming tree high , removing excess stuff . What did you call it once… the personal collections of junk people keep around there houses/property. The things you mentioned are imperative if we plan to keep living in the trees. I have cleared more lots than I can remember. I have cleared my property and those around me… I cut it down to the ground… I use wire fences instead of wood… there were no wood fences left in paradise… Privacy is sort of a bad thing when it comes to defensible space. I work on this almost every day. Me and the weed eater will be back out there tomorrow… I have some property that needs a 4th cutting Working with the land to keep it safe… if you cannot use fire to clear the land then you should emulate what fire does… Clear the low level clutter. It was quite amazing. the fire hit the 4 corners of my property and stopped… Cars left were still there safely surrounded by brown dirt. Defensible space and how to create it have become sort of a manta with me. I wear equipment out and go thru alot of 50-1 mixture . Gotten pretty good at sharpening. … This is no place for the lazy or uninvolved to live. You want to be safe it is something you have to earn… every day. Keep it green and keep it clean… No guarantee but it improves your odds … gives you the time maybe to get out… I have cleaned the easements all the way to the next cross street.

Sort of passionate about this huh?

image

this is behind my property… Not much left of the fire ladder here …

This is just something that has more meaning to me than most I think. It is so hard to watch Greenville have to learn to live with what we now know as the new “normal” here . To watch Westwood or some other wonderful piece of our history go thru the anxiety of waiting . Not the best of things… and off my soapbox

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The Camp fire was an amazing testimonial to the folks who took defensible space. Not all but a fare few.

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I’ve cleared the canopy of all my trees to height of 6’ should I go higher?

Depends on the tree. If it is on flat grounds or a slope, where it sits in relationship to other trees and buildings or egress routes. Branches over your egress route is not good. Trees under trees are troublesome The previous picture is worth a thousand words… Go as high as the tree lets you . Some of us spent a good portion of last season talking about this. The thread was Obstacles to Landscape hazard reduction.

Might be a good read for you. If you want message me and we can talk details away from here

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