I am looking for Workers Comp insurance, commercial truck insurance, and liability insurance? State Farm won’t cover me for fire or disaster work. Who are people using to cover their business when working the fires?
Most “Automobile” companies won’t cover, you will need a COMMERCIAL type provider. Get with a insurance broker than understands commercial trucking companies. If you will have employees, you will need Workers Compensation insurance as well as the Automobile & General Liability coverage.
Make sure you download and understand the Supplier Participation Manual COVER TO COVER.
Good luck
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For WC, look at State Fund. No one else wanted to cover me.
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Progressive won’t add new trucking companies now. What truck insurance company are guys using?
Progressive is who I have. Maybe I got lucky when I signed up last year.
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Super interesting conversation, and well answered a lot of questions I have. I currently have a farming operation and have long thought about getting into contracting WT’s. Some really good comments from Dozer Keith, EHoss and a bunch more. Owning a farming operation will make it “easier” for me since I already have a lot of the workman’s comp, “farming Op Insurance”, General Liability stuff in place. Haven’t gotten a DOT yet since I run my own op and don’t commercial out, but I’m sure I need that. I have realized that the state however is surely a bureaucracy and have read the CF Supplier Manual in detailed fashion! It is just amazing to me how many support implements and equipment is used and needed! Just a lot of hoops. One thing in there I did not understand or they didn’t explain it well, was the whole “Small Business” or “Disabled Vet Rating” that is used to determine “Call-out Preference”. Anyone got any info on where to do the Small Business registration portion or Vet portion? Also, as far as trucks go. I have a 2500 Gal truck now and a buddy has a 4k, both have very good points. The smaller, although less in Gals can get anywhere and is a whole lot more maneuverable in tight spots, the “beast” however is just that, a lot of water. Any input on water capacity preferences, or in this scenario, is “bigger is better” the only way to go? Awesome site fellas! Great info!
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The SBE & DVBE are both handled through DGS (
Department of General Services) they will handle the certification, verification of SBE & DVBE. Once you have that number, then the HEC(Hired Equipment Coordinator) in the unit you will sign up in will add that info to the EERA.
As for WT. They are ordered by typing, either a Type 2 or Type 1.
Specific gallons cannot be ordered/requested as that is not part of the SPM.
Type 2 1000-2499 gallons
Type 1 2500+
The 2500 gallon truck gets paid the same as the 4000 truck when working for CF. Now the VIPR system is completely different and may be the reason he owns a 4k instead of a 2500. As far as needs, every incident is different. Have seen fires where only Type 2 WT are ordered and used because they are the only ones that can fit on the logging roads. Have seen incidents where only Type 1’s are ordered because the turnaround time is 2-4hr per load of water and everything in between.
Every incident is different. Good luck
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Thanks for that Info! Maybe you could speak to the topic of trucks and “compliance”. Was talking to a guy who has trucks and when I asked him about trucks that were being use, he told me that anything older than a 2012 would not be utilized due to carb compliance. I thought that was kind of weird. It’s funny because I have a 2009. Who knows, maybe he didn’t want “competition”, funny. In either case, I would like to use mine as well, but if I need to purchase another, that would be an option as well. But, it seems to me that there are 2000’s up to current in use? I live in Northern Ca and during the Paradise fire, I saw many different year trucks…some that I thought were even early ninety models…thoughts?
Yes CARB is an issues the depending in the weight of truck, there are different requirements for use of diesel engines. Currently, if the truck is capable of hauling/moving/ towing 80,000lb or more, nothing older than 2010 can be driven in California and that will become 2012 or newer next year. The only exception is “Emergency use” registration from CARB. In California all on highway trucks must be registered with CARB. So if the truck doesn’t meet the regulations, it MUST be registered as Emergency Use and is limited to 1,000 miles per year. Here’s the rub, if the truck wasn’t previously registered with CARB or in California, it must meet the most current regulations which for on highway is Tier-4 Final and run DEF. If you have a previously registered truck that was “Low Use” and now being re-registered as Emergency Use, CARB will allow it, but cannot drive more than 1,000 miles in a year. There is an exception that “Emergency Disaster/Fire Use” milage doesn’t count against the 1,000 miles. But, you still have to pay for full registration with DMV, fully insured, fuel & heavy highway use taxes. I’ve been told that depending on your business those total costs can add up to between $12-15k per year with no guarantee of work(think 2019)
Here’s a link with some pertinent info. The CARB requirement for a 2010 or newer power plant applies to heavy diesels with 14,000lb or greater GVWR. You’ll notice you can find older F450’s and F550 for dirt cheap in CA because you can’t register in state. Crying shame as I would love an old 7.3 Stakeside or flatbed.
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You are so right.
CARB has done more to destroy business, increase the cost of trucking in California, and decrease the availability of trucks than anything else.
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The new units are so troublesome, many trucking companies have gone to a model where they buy new and then sell them off as soon as warranty expires. It has been this way for years, and the equipment is not getting better. It takes expensive [$$,$$$] tooling and computers to do what used to be [heavy] shade tree work. There are always guys that give up and go back to old trucks, but not allowed in California.
It may very well be that it is not viable to do this type of business in California if you do not have compliant equipment. New is expensive and used may eat you up in breakdowns and repairs.
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So, great info guys! E Hoss mentioned that next year 2012 will be the oldest truck allowed. Does anyone know exactly where to find that info? Secondly, almost hate to ask, what do people think would be the best option for a tender? Or, what is the best overall choice? I’m thinking if a guy upfits to the “fire line” category, this type could be used for any assignment? But, what about model of truck and powetrains that are good or others to stay away from? Auto? manual? Thanks!
That’s an all over the map question with any number of answers
- What is your primary business model?
- What will your type of service be(Type 1, Type 2)?
- What will.be your budget?
- What Will be your long game(ROI time period)
I ask all of these questions because I know companies that are fire exclusive run by folks that are retired. They only insure vehicles for 6mo during season. They have zero employees and only run Standard or Reduced shift themselves. And they don’t rely on fire assignments as a primary or secondary source of income.
I also know construction companies that have close to 15 pieces of equipment (dozers, excavators, graders, lowbeds) that will pull their fire ready equipment off a job site, re-rent what they pulled to cover the jobsite and chase fires all season.
If you click the link I provided above and then scroll down and open “regulation basics”, you’ll find a spread sheet with the engine/model year replacement dates.
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E Hoss,
Fair statement. So here it is.
- Retired
- Own a small farm (already have farm liability rating/commercial insurance for ag equip, etc.)
- Already registered as SB with State (Still need DOT Reg & MC)
- looking to gain local ag contracts/CalTrans/Private & Gov(CALFire) Water Tender jobs
- Initially Type1: Looking to start, figure bidding/contract system out first, then grow if it works out
- Start up- No Employees - Me only - an additional driver would be possible if need be.
- Start up equip budget $150k - Have other resources
- Long Game - Long Term/Compliment to farming ops - Not main income source.
Like I mentioned, I’m not planning on making this “My Life”, but I can foresee it complimenting my farming ops and hell, I can’t stare at trees all day! Hoping to make this my retirement gig. If its year around thats great, if its seasonal, ok too.
Thanks so much for the honest talk!
J.
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So, if I read that chart right, if I purchase a 2010 or newer, I will be good for the next few years. I say that, because if I get a great deal on a '10 or up, I can save some money and if the biz isn’t what I thought it would be, I’m not in to it up to my ears? Thx.
If you purchase a rig that old, there is a significant possibility that an emissions related failure can take you out of service and/or eat up the entire season profit in one incident.
This cannot be stated too strongly. The risk is high. This is not an exaggeration.
These systems are really awful and they get worse with age, plus, the older you go the less well refined they were. 2010 was the first year of the current emissions regimen so anything of that era is kind of an “early production” model. But anything newer is likely still very new and expensive.
I am not sure how many guys there are still riding the “fire only/1000 miles off fire” train with old, reliable trucks, but you will be competing against them as well. Their expenses are a lot lower.
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@Birken_Vogt nailed it. The NO DEF SCR type of emissions system have 4,000-5,000hr life before R&R on the heavy equipment side. On the truck side that seems to be in the 300,000-500,000 mile range on OTR type trucks. Fleet trucks that get turned in on the 2nd market are typically 30-40 months old and have right at that same mileage range.
CARB has really screwed up the trucking industry in California and they don’t care about it. On fire engines, the emissions systems have had to have all “limp” safety feature removed due to life safety. I know some depts have started a 24mo R&R of the emissions systems for this very reason. On the equipment side of things, the engines will “Limp” when they approach 90% capacity and require a REGEN BURN to self clean. There really is no good answer. If you have the $150k budget, you can get a 2012/newer Type 2 and possible a Type 1. Unless you are using the Type 1 for the farm, it doesn’t pencil with the difference in pay for the Type 1 compared to the Type 2 IMHO.
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Good point on the negligible difference between the type 1 and type 2 as far as rate goes. I guess I’m hung up on the thought that a majority of call ups are for type 1’s? Am I. Or looking at that right? Honestly I like the size of the type 2’s and it does make sense for my personal operation.
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