Today’s discussion at the FAM meeting in Sac was about yesterday’s post on the OPM article and minimum wages. Not too much progress I take it was made so far if the focus today by FS leadership was minimum wage in states that would help Federal Wildland Firefighters get to, minimum wage.
Anyone at the meetings have anything to report?
sometimes the work you do as a hotshot is done because of the hard work, the low pay and the miserable conditions…and i beg to differ on the experience can be grabbed on a helitack crew, some things are worth doin’ that money can’t buy, a passion for the work will leave you content after its all done and said if you choose the right path for yourself
None of that feeds people’s kids. Sorry to be harsh but that’s also a fact.
House Dems hold the line and negotiate for 12 weeks of paid parental leave in return agree to officially create the Space Force (or whatever it’s called) under the US Air Force. Current federal law allows for what is commonly know as family leave, however vacation or sick leave must be used. With this new law administrative leave or some equivalent to that will be used.
Most fed wildland firefighters have the passion for the job! However that’s why the government loves us, they think we’re cheap “anything below a GS 11 is cheap and low skilled labor.” Do not believe a line officer has the same “shared risk” as a fireline supervisor, IC or a burnboss. Watch your back! Just Saying
Good observation. I’ve had two GS-11’s tell me over the past month they’re strongly considering accepting an anticipated offer coming soon to leave the feds. One of the two is not eligible for fed retirement. The other would get a minimal fed retirement.
Although we had a lot of help along the way from the non fire types for this downfall, it’s time to take a look in the mirror and come to the reality that; we did this to ourselves.
Just an outsider to the Fed side of the equation, but there is a significant downside risk that hasn’t been discussed as part of this. That is that the people who do stay with the Fed ranks are either very dedicated to the job and aren’t as concerned with the money or the people who are as motivated to become better. Please note that based upon what I see from our colleagues who post here, that they are definitely in the category of the dedicated professionals category. That being said, we all know that there are higher GS level vacancies that often, far too often get filled with lesser qualified or experienced people. That further erodes the satisfaction of the higher skilled professionals along with creating a real void with the capabilities of the Federal leadership. IMHO, we have not yet reached the point where this trend changes or has reached the point at which the greatest safety risks are exposed.
Just one person’s viewpoint and observations.
i agree, during my career there were quite a few fmo’s that were dedicated along with afmo’s, supts, foremans, sfeo’s and there was a group of workers who could be called to perform field work along with district folks as well…the work is still there to do and that work is where the passion comes in knowing your pay isnt the best…from a contented workers standpoint, grateful for the dedicated leaders who served!
Yes, there are. Where the situation begins to shift is above the good men and women on the line. As MHB terms is correctly, Vallejo, meaning all the initial decision making personnel in Vallejo who do not have the appreciation, experience or even interest in understanding what the hard working line personnel do. These are the people who should but don’t want to understand what their lack of interest is doing with respect to not adequately fighting for better pay and equitable position titles for the Fed personnel.
If you read any of my comments on this thread, I have written about the fact that FS firefighters should be classified as what they are, which is Firefighters along with the commensurate pay grade.
ADD: My comments on this matter are not meant in any manner to be derogatory to the people like MHB and you, @jagudmtn, who do work extremely hard and are a credit to the organization that you work for. Rather, they are directed at the FS leadership both in Vallejo and Washington that are far more interested in their personal careers and power than doing the right thing.
When we lose a highly experienced Hotshot Captain, a solid Battalion or Division Chief or an Engine Captain who knows how to use the power of his/her Type 3 Engine to effectively suppress wildfire, or even a solid FFT1, we lose a lot more than a person. Experience lost and replaced with the less experienced is a watch out situation. Normal promotional and personnel departure levels can be absorbed. A large number of departing fire professionals and fewer applicants for entry level positions is a significant health and safety risk.
Continuing to battle Line Officers, Vallejo, senior fire managers to “do something” to shore up our losses could be a lost cause and misdirected. Our focus might be better served to take our concerns to federal and state workplace safety professionals for investigations. Unions can fight labor and hiring practices and fight agencies that create, promote and expand unsafe working conditions beyond acceptable levels . Maybe even the courts who can issue a consent decree with oversight from a federal judge requiring Federal agencies to work on these issues. If a federal judge and agency accepted a consent degree on discriminatory hiring practices, I am sure they would consider a case that revolves around the increased risks to the health and safety associated to the profession caused by agency neglect or indifference.
Experience and the ability to effectively implement LCES is the foundation of LCES. We have cracks in the foundation. Some would say it’s crumbling.
Amen! 100% on mark
Sadly what the Federal Agencies are losing, local Government and the State are gaining. Under the current political climate, I can see no end in sight for this problem. Technology is advancing at a rate that has rapidly surpassed the human ability to keep up with changes.
In just 13yr we have DC10’s & 747’s dropping 10,000-20,000 gallons of retardant. Most of us carry more computing power in our pockets that put Neil Armstrong on the moon, and that’s just since 2006.
In 2019, we have the ability to 24hr, real time ISR over a fire and transmit that info to the commanders on the ground.
While 2019 was a relatively quiet year(in R5 anyways) the accelerated brain drain continues. Which leads me back to what MHB is talking about. California is now on Autopilot for minimum wage increases,
$13.00 beginning 1/1/20
$14.00 beginning 1/1/21
$15.00 beginning 1/1/22
After that minimum wage is pegged to
COLA(cost of living adjustment)
2020 is not only an election year, it also starts a new CFAA Period that some could agrue is at the breaking point after 2016-2018. NWCG seems to have divorced itself from the ICS Typing in the FIRESCOPE FOG MANUAL regarding dozers & water tenders.
What does all this mean? 2020 will be a year of immense change, sadly it appears wages for our federal brothers & sisters doesn’t appear to be one of them. I personally recommend those that wish to remain living in California to continue educating themselves and “move on to greener pastures” so that they can support themselves & their families. Everything in California will get more expensive on 1/1 the next few years, except for what it costs to employ a federal FF😭 Which is really sad
Very insightful post. 
Well spoken Sir, I’m onboard
That drove a nail in deep. Very well said!
Iam going to do a pay break down from series 0081 Fire Fighter pay to 0462 Forestry Technician. This for a GS 5 Step 1 California, San Diego / Carlsbad.
0081 GS 5-1. 13.69 Hourly / 20.54 OT
0462 GS 5-1. 18.11 Hourly / 27.17 OT
0081 No Holiday Pay / No Hazard Pay / No Night Diff.
The 0081 Series has guaranteed Over time built in which it is 38 Hours @ $780.52 because we work a 72 hours a week and 144 hours a pay period.
Also 0081 is a portal to portal pay. On that note a 14 day fire assignment you will have 8 days of overtime.
Base pay with built in OT. $2,231.66
8 Days of overtime $3,943.68
Total pay for 14 day $6,175.34
Also 0081 Series firefighters are GS 7. Captains can be GS 8 or 9 depending on base and location. GS 9 are firefighter paramedic.
Now to tell you the truth I only make an extra 800$ more on a fire assignment then I did with the forest service as a 5 Step 5 and I am a 7 step 5, because I get taxed a crap ton.
To break it down if the Forest Service goes 0081 your base check will be:
0081 GS - 5 Step 1. 40 Hr Base $1,095.20
0462 GS - 5 Step 1. 40Hr Base $1,448.80
You will be losing $355.60 in pay going to 0081.
To break down 0081 Fire Fighter pay if you transfer over from FS you will double your base pay check and double the amount you put in the TSP .
Annual Pay $58,023.16 0081 GS 5 Step 1
Annual Pay $81,461.92 0081 GS 7 STEP 5 (My current pay)
I love the Forest Service the friends and knowledge I gained there but I had to leave for better pay and only having to work 6 days every 2 weeks. Please dont take this as a jab just breaking down the pay.
Worked for the USFS for 29 years as a Forestry Tech in fire. Started out in south zone. Was 26/0 within 3 years. Moved to north zone and lost my PFT with new OPM rules. Back to 18/8. Retired as a Fire Apparatus Engineer. (FEO and going back as far as TTO). GS 7 step 9. Best move I ever made. Loved the time off. Loved the job. Worked as at remote Guard Stations most of my career. Wanted nothing to do with “management” positions. With the time off, built my house, invested my OT, financed hobbies and stayed out of debt. Would I do it again? Probably not. But I retired at 52 and am in a good place financially and health wise . Of course the the kicker is I have no kids. But what it boils down to (to me) is loving what you are doing beats “working” for higher pay. " When it comes down to taking the time or taking the money, I’ll take the time…" Ed Abbey
Insightful Keep. Thanks. Do you have those numbers transposed? I will go back and double check.
Also thanks for your post Stymie. I think many agree with you and you seemed to have figured out how to work hard and be successful.
To some it’s no longer a matter of work place, it also comes down the pay when compared to the life/safety risks associated with the positions.
With the 2020 federal pay raise and minimum wage hikes in California and some other states, entry level Federal Wildland Firefighters will make .32 cents more an hour, or $2.56 more day than a minimum wage worker in 2020.
Men and women Federal Wildland Firefighters are required to have a baseline of skills from the start and increase those skills and proficiency over a short period of time. Pay does not increase during a fire season as skills and proficiency increase. Federal Wildland Firefighters train in the classroom and in the field continuously and require a high level of physical conditioning.
The risks associated with the position are tremendously higher than most professions, let alone minimum wage positions.
All for 2.56 more a day.
Yup
So expect the exodus to Calfire & LG to accelerate in R5 in 2020
