A laminated go/no go checklist is a must, pull it out during every briefing, it only helps everyone involved. Time permitting have someone you trust check your firing plan also.
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I am not opposed to having insurance companies hire private contractors and private equipment to protect high value assets in a fire zone. Anything that helps reduce the forward looking costs and liabilities for residents and businesses in these affected areas will help with the restoration and economic recovery in that area. As an example, if people’s insurance rates can be held lower and/or the insurance companies will remain insuring the homes and businesses in those areas, people have better choices to stay or are forced to leave.
Secondly, private firms like Capstone and FireStormer are often used by Washington DNR and Oregon ODF for fires suppression and true line work, so their people are definitely qualified and trained personnel. As such, they are accustomed to being able to use defensive firing and perhaps, even firing operations in those States. Recognizing that CA is a much different and much more litigious State than OR or WA, changes those abilities for those private companies. I am not in a position to judge the specific circumstances of what occurred yesterday on Div SS on the Glass, so I don’t precisely know what the type of firing was occurring, but chances are that it was more than likely some fashion of a defensive move. In the event that it was a defensive move, that’s probably a circumstance in which people who are not attached to the incident should no longer be in that area simply from an accountability and safety perspective. I am not questioning their abilities, training, experience or credentials, simply that the lack of communications becomes a safety matter not a legal one.
While the private contract personnel are supposed to check in to the ICP, their movements on an incident are not tracked and there is no accountability for them. Line personnel in the areas which they are working generally know that these personnel are there but not specifically what addresses they are located at or if they move to another address. This lack of accountability at some point is going to have some tragic outcomes, perhaps not on this incident but at some point it will. Most of these private contractors have radios which are used on their company’s FCC licensed frequencies, most likely do not have any repeaters within many of these areas nor are they authorized to use incident assigned frequencies which do have repeaters assigned for Command channels, so should there be an instance whereby they need immediate assistance, they are not in any position to do so.
At some point, it would seem that there is going to be the need to somehow tie these personnel to the incident in some fashion. Perhaps not to the degree that private hire and agency equipment is tied but there does need to a better accountability mechanism than is in place today.
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I think the following would be great help when it comes to insurance assets working in the area. They aren’t going anywhere, if anything the presence will only get larger, and there needs to be awareness of what they are doing and how they may effect our operations.
- Create an insurance equipment liaison in ICS.
- Companies interface with the liaison and provide a map of assets at risk, equipment they will have, and priorities.
- Have a common radio channel used by the insurance companies that can be monitored by the liaison.
- Liaison creates a briefing that is included in the IAP or given to Branch and DIVS.
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Well stated. This is exactly what needs to happen
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I strongly believe that all wildland fire agencies must do a better job of firefighter accountability at wildfires although it is done relatively well at major fires with the advent of an incident action plan. For initial action and the like wildfires, accountability is very hit and miss. Some Type 3 engines keep an accountability chart in the engine. Some don’t. Same applies with fire crews and dozers. The IC or OSC doesn’t often know where individual strike teams or single resources are deployed. For many all hazard type incidents such as hazmats, technical rescues, structure fires, et al, accountability is well kept and roll calls to confirm accountability are often taken on 10-15 minute time separations.
Like everyone else, I always live in fear of a catastrophic fire burn over with deaths or serious injuries. We all fear burn overs yet this is very dangerous work so wildfire accountability is critical. When, not if a burn over occurs, the OSHA agencies will be after the wildland fire agencies. Count on it. We still have time to affect a change.
Thank you.
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How is it hard to justify? “risk a lot to save a lot, risk little to save little”. When your looking at potentially losing homes due to a firing operation vs loosing an entire town by not firing, which is the lesser of the two?
How do you think the town a Julian was saved during the Cedar fire? Did they loose some homes? Yep. Did they save the town and hundreds of other homes? Sure did.
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Well, the Cedar Fire killed Engineer Steve Rucker from Novato. Life for a town?
And Allen Brunacini from Phoenix Fire made that risk alot statement in 1984, just before his Fire Command book came out in 1985.
Careful what you say here.
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The firing operation that saved Julian and the Orchard lane burn over occurred on different days and were in no way associated with each other.
Can you please elaborate on what you mean by “careful what you say here”?
Mod Note: @sofr_bear @IAfire…I moved your comments into the Assumption of Risk thread, as we are drifting away from the direct discussion with regard to the Glass Fire, not because of any lack of importance of your dialog.
-Keith
One of our planning customers had private resources protecting their properties on the first night of the Glass Fire. During the 2019 Kincade Fire, this customer lost a winery, and many beautiful structures, took tens of millions in losses. Since then, we have done a full hazard assessment and mapping of all of their various properties, made pre-fire maps for them to distribute to firefighters, and helped them plan and implement dozens of acres of fuels work. They pay for a private Type VI engine during fire season, and were able to save a winery and many structures during the Glass Fire. (This wouldn’t have been possible without the fuels work they did up front). They were also tied in with their Division.
Just putting this out there as an example - There is a wide variety of private responders, ranging from a rancher with their own engine, to established contractors with qualified ENGBs and FFs, and equipment that meets VIPR specs (including comms). Not all the privateers are working for insurance companies.
Also, there are shades of gray with ‘firing’. After a fire goes thru, what about cleaning up black off a driveway after the fire has gone thru?
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For that matter, what about slinging a shovelful of already burning material from point A to point B to clean up the burn?
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That quote is generally referred to as the “normalization of deviance” and generally leads to negative outcomes if the behavior is not corrected.
Remember" the difference between initiative and independent action is a radio transmission"…
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When Steve died there was also rouge firing by a CF person that had major impact on the incident
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Excellent point and great quote. Thank you.
I agree wholeheartedly that communications, accountability, and seamless integration into the rest of the incident are absolutely essential for any of this private firefighting to work.
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Are there any details as to what exactly happened the other day?
I’ve only heard about it on here, and then heard that the private engine at our customer’s winery was ordered into the ICP along with all other private resources.
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The road to hell was paved with good intentions, if you don’t communicate your plan with personnel in the area it can cost someone greatly as has been stated and if you couldn’t communicate with line personnel in first place you shouldn’t have been out there. On the oakwood fire a few years back AA unit spotted a CALFIRE engine firing off a dirt road who hadn’t notified anyone, another engine had find them and to get them to stop.
On the creek fire the lakeshore resort owner took it upon himself to “borrow” a huntington lake volly engine and got arrested later claiming he told them what he was doing but no one could verify him telling anyone with the department.
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There are so many rules and regulations in California many have argued these rules have created some of the reasons for the fire conditions we are now seeing. Fire insurance for homeowners is going to be the next big issue in Ca. Many of us live in rural areas. By adding more rules to private fire companies is only going to make the cost and availability of homeowners insurance worse. Many insurance companies are leaving California. We need less rules and regulations for them if we are going to have any type of competition for decent rates. Our pay is based on real estate values to some extent. As the insurance companies flee and the costs go higher real estate values will go down. This may affect our pay.
We let the news and social media photographers in the hot zone. The private fire companies should get the same access. Ca. needs all the help it can get for structure protection as many of the local and Cal Fire engines tend to get engaged in rescues and evacations. 911 gets flooded for requests for people being trapped and that diverts many of our emergency resources. The private engines only focus on saving “our” homes.
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The press has a constitutional right under the first amendment to be in the fire area as long as they are not impeding firefighting operations. There is no constitutional amendment that gives private firefighters the right to protect private Property. Even thought this is California, and as much as some people in this state don’t like it, the constitution still applies here.
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