Assumption of Risk

(Started new thread from Q&D Glass Inc posts, this post should follow GreenLake post, Dozer_Kieth post below this one started the discussion)

I haven’t seen anyone indicate any agency is better. The point about the reckless use of backfire by a “forest agency” I think was not needed. Every one has skeletons and pointing them out isn’t pertinent and does nothing to further the discussion.

Remember the “be a supervisor, get personally sued” law enacted 20 years ago? That certainly changed how I assumed risks as a supervisor, simply because it was a material change and I was aware it was the law.

Not everyone is confined space trained, swift water trained, haz mat trained, yet I’m sure opportunities have occurred where “untrained” personnel perform these tasks. When they do, they take a risk and they are aware of it.

Clearly PRC gives anyone the ability to put fire on the ground if it meets the requirements. If you are not one of the two authorized agencies you have a higher threshold and assume a risk. Some might not like that however, the law is the law. Know that and act accordingly.

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There is a safety and accountability issue in Div SS with insurance hire private equipment, who aren’t attached to the incident, no communications, and not accountable to anyone putting fire on the ground without notifying anyone or verifying that it is safe to do so.

We may need to break this out into a separate discussion as it is a good lengthy discussion in and of itself on these fires with high risk structure areas.

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They are not authorized to put fire on the ground as private contractors. If they are, it amounts to arson and I would hope that the incident would act accordingly.

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Branch and Branch Safety are going to be escorting all private equipment off the fire back to the ICP. I would imagine that will not be a pleasant conversation for all involved.

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Yikes. Sounds like 451 is out since it lacks malice, and I wonder if 452 would stick as reckless if there are private resources on scene given the lack of accountability / comms with the IC and chain of command.

A sticky wicket for sure, and that ain’t gonna be a fun Friday conversation to be having…

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PRC 4426. A person shall not set a backfire, or cause a backfire to be
set, except under the direct supervision or permission of a state or
federal forest officer, unless it can be established that the setting
of such backfire was necessary for the purpose of saving life or
valuable property.

Only Fed and Calfire Officers are allowed to set backfires on non-LG responsibility, or direct them to be set as “control methods”. LG and private runs a risk if they take it on their own initiative, they had better be able to articulate the reasons. This is an opening for a private litigation, be aware.

Unfortunately this PRC give them an out…if they were just doing it as a preventative measure I believe it’s a misdemeanor.

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To remove the fire insurance patrols/engines is going to be very costly. The St. Helena area has some of the most expensive homes in the country. The crews have coms via scanners in their rigs and their smart phone app “5-0 radio pro”. They can monitor all of the safety traffic on command ect. They are doing good work by foaming down the home after home. It would be very rare for any them to be putting “fire on the ground”. Their liability would be way to costly and I am sure it is not in their policies. If you are from out of the area look at these home prices - insane!

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Glad to hear all are good. I saw CAL FIRE’s ESS Peer Support is at the incident should any employee (LG, CF or Fed.) need it. I have found in my career it’s better to get it processed so you can engage with a clearer head. It’s not a weakness to get yourself right, it shows far more strength to address something head on, than to let it linger on the sidelines. They can help in a variety of ways.

Their 24/7 number is 916-823-6641.

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The private engines doing structure defense for insurance companies or by home owner subscription has been around for nearly 20 years. Seems strange that command structure has not found a way to work with them. On the public side we seem to feel we are the only ones who can do any suppression safely resulting in my way or the highway. It is way past time to find a way to work with these private engines safely, I think they call the position liaison. As for putting fire on the ground it should never happen without all the boxes checked. The talk about criminal action out of the box for reports that a private put fire on the ground is way way early! I have experienced fire district personnel putting fire on the ground in the SRA when they had no authorization, should they be charged? We had an engine significantly damaged and the crew safety compromised when a forest agency office was doing rouge independent firing in a totally reckless manor (that agency paid for all the damage). Agency affiliation doesn’t make anyone better than anyone else. The process is always the same, investigate, find the facts and figure how to prevent future problems while addressing all the stake holder needs and interests.

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There are some public resource codes that would be more appropriate

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Plus alot of those crews are ex wildland personnel from a large swath of Forestry Agencies from Ff’s to BC’s. Bet you could form a type 2 team between all of them through out the US.

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Privates are perfectly fine when they stay in their lane, it’s when something happens like putting fire on the ground that issues arise.

If the crew is found to have violated PRC 4426, under a declared state of emergency, they could potentially be facing criminal charges for FELONY arson. Not to mention the civil liability they could face for any and all damages or injuries. State employees face the same civil liability, authority doesn’t excuse liability of errors and omissions

The big difference is the CF has legal authority under PRC 4426, H&S Codes 41801 and 13055 to conduct firing operations. Though that doesn’t mean we just indiscriminately fire with out justification.

So how does one justify their actions? Before I do any firing I take a moment to complete a firing plan, which I keep several copies of in my clipboard. Additionally, everything would be documented on my 214 and would include my weather and fire behavior readings. I then make copies of all of this for my records and turn the originals into the incident.



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A laminated go/no go checklist is a must, pull it out during every briefing, it only helps everyone involved. Time permitting have someone you trust check your firing plan also.

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I am not opposed to having insurance companies hire private contractors and private equipment to protect high value assets in a fire zone. Anything that helps reduce the forward looking costs and liabilities for residents and businesses in these affected areas will help with the restoration and economic recovery in that area. As an example, if people’s insurance rates can be held lower and/or the insurance companies will remain insuring the homes and businesses in those areas, people have better choices to stay or are forced to leave.

Secondly, private firms like Capstone and FireStormer are often used by Washington DNR and Oregon ODF for fires suppression and true line work, so their people are definitely qualified and trained personnel. As such, they are accustomed to being able to use defensive firing and perhaps, even firing operations in those States. Recognizing that CA is a much different and much more litigious State than OR or WA, changes those abilities for those private companies. I am not in a position to judge the specific circumstances of what occurred yesterday on Div SS on the Glass, so I don’t precisely know what the type of firing was occurring, but chances are that it was more than likely some fashion of a defensive move. In the event that it was a defensive move, that’s probably a circumstance in which people who are not attached to the incident should no longer be in that area simply from an accountability and safety perspective. I am not questioning their abilities, training, experience or credentials, simply that the lack of communications becomes a safety matter not a legal one.

While the private contract personnel are supposed to check in to the ICP, their movements on an incident are not tracked and there is no accountability for them. Line personnel in the areas which they are working generally know that these personnel are there but not specifically what addresses they are located at or if they move to another address. This lack of accountability at some point is going to have some tragic outcomes, perhaps not on this incident but at some point it will. Most of these private contractors have radios which are used on their company’s FCC licensed frequencies, most likely do not have any repeaters within many of these areas nor are they authorized to use incident assigned frequencies which do have repeaters assigned for Command channels, so should there be an instance whereby they need immediate assistance, they are not in any position to do so.

At some point, it would seem that there is going to be the need to somehow tie these personnel to the incident in some fashion. Perhaps not to the degree that private hire and agency equipment is tied but there does need to a better accountability mechanism than is in place today.

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I think the following would be great help when it comes to insurance assets working in the area. They aren’t going anywhere, if anything the presence will only get larger, and there needs to be awareness of what they are doing and how they may effect our operations.

  1. Create an insurance equipment liaison in ICS.
  2. Companies interface with the liaison and provide a map of assets at risk, equipment they will have, and priorities.
  3. Have a common radio channel used by the insurance companies that can be monitored by the liaison.
  4. Liaison creates a briefing that is included in the IAP or given to Branch and DIVS.
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Well stated. This is exactly what needs to happen

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I strongly believe that all wildland fire agencies must do a better job of firefighter accountability at wildfires although it is done relatively well at major fires with the advent of an incident action plan. For initial action and the like wildfires, accountability is very hit and miss. Some Type 3 engines keep an accountability chart in the engine. Some don’t. Same applies with fire crews and dozers. The IC or OSC doesn’t often know where individual strike teams or single resources are deployed. For many all hazard type incidents such as hazmats, technical rescues, structure fires, et al, accountability is well kept and roll calls to confirm accountability are often taken on 10-15 minute time separations.

Like everyone else, I always live in fear of a catastrophic fire burn over with deaths or serious injuries. We all fear burn overs yet this is very dangerous work so wildfire accountability is critical. When, not if a burn over occurs, the OSHA agencies will be after the wildland fire agencies. Count on it. We still have time to affect a change.

Thank you.

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How is it hard to justify? “risk a lot to save a lot, risk little to save little”. When your looking at potentially losing homes due to a firing operation vs loosing an entire town by not firing, which is the lesser of the two?

How do you think the town a Julian was saved during the Cedar fire? Did they loose some homes? Yep. Did they save the town and hundreds of other homes? Sure did.

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Well, the Cedar Fire killed Engineer Steve Rucker from Novato. Life for a town?

And Allen Brunacini from Phoenix Fire made that risk alot statement in 1984, just before his Fire Command book came out in 1985.

Careful what you say here.

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The firing operation that saved Julian and the Orchard lane burn over occurred on different days and were in no way associated with each other.

Can you please elaborate on what you mean by “careful what you say here”?

Mod Note: @sofr_bear @IAfire…I moved your comments into the Assumption of Risk thread, as we are drifting away from the direct discussion with regard to the Glass Fire, not because of any lack of importance of your dialog.
-Keith