I agree I went thru the Camp fire. No amount of warning could have prepared any of us for that day. You get a warning just go don’t wait sometimes there is no time to wait for the order and it will be too late. The ’ ahh it’s ok nothing to worry about" people are the ones that jam up the streets and cause accidents and promote anxiety in a already stress filled situation and put tons of other people’s lives at risk as well. Not cool. IMO. If you have the ability to go just go. Better safe than sorry.
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Some of us aren’t firefighters but understand the risk that staying behind poses to everyone involved, if anyone had chose to stay disobeying the Evacuation order for alder springs and pine ridge on Sept 6 they would have been caught up in a situation that was not survivable on the 7th unless someone forcibly removed them before the that evening.
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Some states do not allow a mandatory order.
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To back up what you just stated…My kid was on the Creek Fire. I always told him I would stay and defend and if things got bad I would go to the cul de sac with my fire shelter. When he got back from that fire first thing he said to me " I saw Fire Behavior you would not survive in a fire shelter with clearance. And if that didn’t get you the 24" timber that snapped off in the wind would of.
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I wish the news outlets would stop interviewing and glorifying the folks who stay behind, armed with a water hose. It’s just too dangerous!
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It’s a tough choice…Work all your life for what you have, hard to see it go. The way a lot of these fires are burning you not going to survive a big flame front.
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For the sake of the argument I have met several people who stayed and saved their own home and were able to save neighbors homes as well
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I would not stay and try to defend with a water hose. However, being evacuated from the Willow Fire (2015?) in MMU, we got horses and valuables out and my wife & daughters went to family in the valley. My son and I stayed simply because once you’re out; you’re out until all is lifted. Of course Camp Fire, Creek Fire had the night time behavior that causes these catastrophic burns - and they are different. We would have left in those cases and I advised my family in the area to leave at first notice of the Creek Fire. As far as me staying for The Willow, we were in the order area and would have left on dirt bikes had the fire turned our way. Too much looting had occurred to just leave when the fire was not heading our way. We would NOT have tried to leave in trucks or wait to evac and get in the way of working vehicles. So, I get those that stay, as long as they aren’t expecting to call to assistance later, or expect to get large vehicles, etc. out at last minute. Our sheriff’s dept did great after a large looting event and for following fires, they would escort residents in to check on things, or get odds and ends when the situation allowed. This was because most refused to Evac because of previous looting. So, that was a way to encourage evacuation on warnings.
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Definitely can see why people stay. I would stay and have in the past. It’s not for everyone. There’s a lot of places that could be saved with just a homeowner and good clearance. I never have and never will be one to tell people they have to go. All you can do is give them the recommendation and move on.
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And don’t look back. You have done all that should be asked of you.
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At first I thought naw this isn’t deserving of it’s own thread… now I disagree with myself LOL. A few comments on what I have read:
- Not all people on this site are firefighters. Quite a few civilians, including myself are joining as a faster source of info on the behavior and direction of these critical fires than typical news outlets provide.
- Thank you to those of you that are experienced and knowledgeable in the field providing useful information.
- As yarddog11 mentioned, another reason people wish to stay and defend is against looters. Sucks to leave, have your house not burn, and return to theft and vandalism. My parents lost their house only to discover someone had stolen the brand new well pump which was needed before construction could begin.
- As Mz.JekleNHyde said, the Camp fire was so fast and vicious, would planning have helped much, if at all? Mix that kind of fire with getting that many people out of an area with limited routes doesn’t have a good chance of ending well. Fortunately, few fires are like Camp or Oakland Hills or other firestorms and allow more time to alert and evacuate than that day. Did any communities that are vulnerable like that take it as a serious warning and do anything about preparing for devastating fires? What did they do? To what extremes should any of them prepare? Who should be responsible to make it happen? Who pays for it?
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I know in Amador County we have a strong Fire Safe Council that has gotten grants to pay for some of the work being done. Some of the communities are working on becoming “Fire Wise”, which generates grants. The 88 corridor has a lot of work being done on it. We are also fortunate enough to have the last “Youth Authority”/ DJJ camp that does training work when not deployed. Amador County Animal Response Team does a lot of education to prepare and GO. We are very fortunate here on so many levels.
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Our 14 years living in the foothills made us realize that we had neither youth nor strength on our side anymore to properly stay safe. We didn’t have a network of nearby close friends and family that could come help us out in a pinch and while that wasn’t needed when we first moved there… well, we got older and it became apparent to us that the property was too much for us to handle (shoveling 300 ft of snow to get us off the driveway just about killed me haha). We went thru a couple of years with multiple evacuations each year (a pain with five dogs in tow) and we were always the first people out. We lived on what I called a lollipop street… one big two mile road leading up the mountain to a three mile loop at the top. What seemed like a lovely rural neighborhood when we moved there in 2001 came to look like a deathtrap to us. It’s why we didn’t mess around when it came to evacuating… we were loading up before any warnings were even being discussed. What was odd was that when evacuating our neighborhood, it seemed like the older people were generally the folks who weren’t going to budge until they could see the flames on their property. Is that typical? In 2015, we made the ultimate early evacuation – we sold our house and moved back to the city. Heh.
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I love the upcountry but all you cited is why I am not moving up now that I retired. I have seen that scenario often: retire, move upcountry, can’t handle the work and either impose on others, and finally decided to move down the hill. I am in a good place so staying where I am.
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Law enforcement mutual aid (LEMA) is slowly catching up. Still many years to go to even resemble something like the fire mutual aid model. The Rim Fire was one of the first mass-community evacuations for modern LE in California. I remember officers from 250 miles away showing up on day 10 in the middle of Tuolumne wondering what hotel they’re checking into and getting hit with reality when asked if they brought their sleeping bags and tents. Sac PD “uhh sleeping bags?!” Oroville Dam. Camp Fire. Carr Fire. North Complex. Lava, Tamarack and now Dixie. Each incident utilizing officers from 100-500 miles away, and each allowing California law enforcement to better tune their mutual aid response.
I’m noticing the three major goals of LEMA on California to these types of incidents are:
- Surge force for immediate evacuations.
- Relieve the hosting agencies for normal patrol to allow local agencies to take care of home and families who are wrapped up in the local incident.
- Surge force for patrols after the roads are closed and bulk have evacuated. They have identified the need to protect from looting, and the more they can show protection of looting in empty communities, the more citizens will trust and heed evacuation warnings, saving lives and firefighting efforts.
Although the whole plain text, not using 10codes will take a few more decades to work on. Nothing like a Siskiyou County dispatcher saying they need a 10-31 at such and such address, and San Diego PD officer thinking they’re going to a shooting vs a noisy dog call.
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I had to pipe in here because I just had this conversation with my wife. We were monitoring the constant updates of evacuation warnings and orders of the Dixie Fire that were popping up on our phones from different media sources. They didn’t always correspond from one source to the other. That’s when she recalled reading that Oregon had evacuation levels. I researched it and they do in fact have 3 levels of evacuation. No confusion or errors by media outlets from them putting their own language into it. It’s hard to sensationalize when all it comes down to is Evacuation Level 1,2, or 3. Bottom line is, California should really look into changing its system.
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Law Enforcement dispatcher here who does SAR on the side… you hit the nail on the head with regards to 10/11 codes vs plain text. Always seems to be a problem. Additionally radio communications can be a challenge when you have some agencies on VHF, UHF, 700/800 MHz etc. and that’s before you throw in trunking and encryption.
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I think what people don’t realize, including many firefighters, is that with or without PPE you may be killed or severely burned before you truly understand the danger you are in. You may be able to save your house, but one good outcome is NOT an indication of a good risk management process
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Luck reinforces bad decisions
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I believe AZ is doing the same. Simple and easy to understand. They still have problems with people staying behind. Knowing what zone you are in is also a problem. The individual best defense is to be paying attention.