Fire_Nado?

Just wondering why everyone is posting videos of dust devils/ convective columns with slight rotation at the base and labeling them firenados?

Seems like a bit irresponsible considering one (dust/ash devil) is not very dangerous which could misinform inexperienced firefighters and the public.
Another situation (rotating column) is dangerous and significant indicator of conditions and possible future events but still not the elusive “firenado”.

The phenomenon that infrequently occurs but is extremely dangerous I’ve always known as the “Rotating Vertical Plume”, in which case not only do you have a cyclone like behaviour with smoke and unburned fuel but also actual fire at the center and base.

Just wondering if anyone else is kind of tired of seeing these posts?

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I agree. Was in the Creek and one area had area that experienced that phenomenal.

Ever since the Carr Fire in 2018, where there was truly a fire tornado equivalent to an EF3, the media has been fixated on every fire whirl being a “firenado.” I have always just put it into the ignorance and laziness of the media category. A true fire tornado is an extremely rare event while fire whirls occur often.

As for a rotating column, yes, they are not all that common but they do exist and present very extreme fire behavior in all directions of the column, similar to that of when a pyrocumulus cloud or column collapses.

While it is tiring to listen to the media go on about it, consider the source and know that they really have no clue most of the time.

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I agree, problem is I have seen a lot of tweets posted in this forum and just not sure if they were impressed by the footage or just reposting the tweets so we could have a laugh?

Either way I do believe some that use these forums won’t know the difference and believe what they see on the link is factual.

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That where is becomes our responsibility, to educate the newer inexperienced people we work with to pass along the knowledge and experience and make them better. I have seen that knowledge transfer here on this forum, perhaps not as much as it could in specific reference to what is or is not a true “firenado” but certainly it does happen in many other areas.

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That part that bums me out is that I regularly see members of PIO shops using the same wrong terminology.

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That is true and is does happen along when it shouldn’t. However, keep in mind that PIO’s are media relations trained people and while some do have line experience, it isn’t a requirement for their specific function. Not in any way trying to justify or excuse their misuse, but their role is different than ours. I certainly would make at least as many mistakes if I tried to enter their role, not that I have any desire to do so. We have to recognize the digital and social media has taken a whole new realm of people in the PIO role that didn’t need to exist previously.

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Well I hate to say it but most of the PIOs for my dept are line personnel for their day job and well…they still say it.

But I agree it’s not so much on the PIO folks. We are the ones they are spreading the word for, it’s incumbent upon us to ensure they are spreading the word correctly.

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I never tire of seeing posts about them. To me, any cyclonic feature should be a watch-out situation, and I would hate to hear of new firefighters standing by trying to figure out if that’s a ‘nado or “just a dust devil” before taking action. You say potato, someone else says potahto.

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Not following your point? It’s necessary to understand what you’re seeing in order to take appropriate action even if the action is simply asking a more experienced firefighter what is going on and what to do.

I’m tired of seeing it in media because it’s a buzz word, as for John q public they don’t know any better usually and if we can educate a few people about the difference then more people will know.

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Do they call it a fire cyclone down under? Carry on…

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I agree with you in that it’s not something that I would want green firefighters trying to figure out on the line, however, the importance of the distinction becomes very critical on the line. With a fire whirl, you are certainly going to want to pay attention, as it indicates very unstable air in and around the line, and you’re definitely going to pay close attention to the whirl as it moves, and step away from it’s path but it is not going to exhibit radical fire behavior across a very wide section of line nor is it going to have radical outflow winds that a true tornado is going to have. In a true tornado condition, you aren’t going to want or have people anywhere in the area. If we moved people out of the area every time there is a whirl, nothing would ever get accomplished on the line.

I would also say that the line, is not the time or place to expand the learning curve. That’s what off-line training sessions and discussions after an event are for.

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You can see a lot of firewhirls and other interesting fire behaviour during burn ops and other times when standing down to come up with plan while the fire blows up that is a critical time to teach.

You cannot learn everything in a classroom and while it’s fresh and if opportunity presents itself learning on the line is the absolute best place, so I completely disagree with the last part of that statement.

Of course you don’t drop what you’re doing to teach if you could be putting out the fire, however there’s lots of opportunities within the ranks where experienced firefighters can educate younger minds on what they are witnessing/how to properly communicate what they see to others and how to predict things in the future.

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Yes, you raise a fair point in that. My thinking was aligned towards a life safety decision point to stay or exit the area. Should expanded that aspect of it. But, most definitely, I would agree that firing ops are a good time to observe fire behavior. Thanks for making that point clearer.

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Thank you both (Dozer Keith and Frank Strong). Good, interesting discussion. I can see the appeal to the media and PIOs by extension - fire-nados are dramatic, scary, exciting, sexy, and graphic, so the use of the term probably won’t disappear. It’s a term that definitely came into greater use after the Redding Carr Fire in 2018, which really was one.

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The term fire-tornado has been used by the NWS. Last month they issued the first ever warning for this phenomena at the Loyalton fire.

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Sorry all that was my post on Twitter. I should have used the name Smoke-Nado or smoke dust devil I suppose. I’ve captured this phenomenon a number of times lately. Carry on with the discussions.

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We’re not saying that’s a terrible thing to say, not saying don’t use that term.

Just that every time it’s used in most cases I’ve seen do not actually depict the proper phenomenon like the event that occurred on the carr and a few other times is far more violent and serious than a dust devil or ash devil or even fire whirl.

I think a true firenado is a fire induced, weather phenomenon that has been documented twice by Doppler radar, the Carr fire and the Loyalton fire this year.