GIS and INCIDENT MAPPING

Do you think I could use a better term than to call it a fire update? I’m open to suggestions on how best to do this. I’ve been avoiding calling things a briefing so as not to have people think it’s official. I’m mainly trying to educate the public on how fires behave and how firefighting works.

I make an effort not to go too deep into commentary or specifics without direct information from someone who is on the field. I don’t post about accidents or burned structures, or make any commentary about evacuations, except to encourage people to leave early.

I’m always open to suggestions or feedback, especially if you see me putting out what you feel is bad info or misleading commentary. There is an email link on the-lookout.org.

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Personally, I think your doing an awesome job and I have no issues understanding that your reports are not official. Please keep up the hard work, its very much appreciated by us layman’s.

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Not sure if I qualify as learned or ignorant… but here is what I do know…
Not personal… just a professional opinion.
As far as a “briefing” I would hope that no one assigned to the incident is receiving or reviewing anything other than what is put out by the team or AHJ.
What is more of an issue is the term “briefing”. I believe that the general perception of a briefing would be that it comes from an official source who is directly connected to the incident in an official capacity.
Everything else is just an opinion(in my opinion).

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Good input. I’ll avoid using the word ‘Briefing’. It’s kind of brave new world with hundreds of webcams and new programs like FIRIS pushing perimeters out to public servers in near realtime these days. There is a huge unmet appetite for timely intel.

I have been trying to focus my work in landscapes I know well. I dug deep into the Dixie Fire because I am a local and have been working in fire here since I was a youngster, felt I had info that would be helpful for people who were coming in from out of the area to fight the fire. The local print newspapers in Dixie Fire went out of business during Covid, so there is a need to get good info out to my friends, family, and neighbors up there.

Not really interested in trying to be an expert for fires everywhere, and for the work we are currently doing on fires in the Southern Sierra we are relying on local volunteers who know what they are talking about.

I interpret everything I post, and look for confirmation from multiple sources if something is questionable in the IR - during the Caldor Fire the overnight IR was inaccurately showing fire into neighborhoods in Christmas Valley and I chose not to post portions I couldn’t confirm from other reliable sources. Another IR flight on Dixie showed 100 acres of a firing operation on the wrong side of Highway 36. I’m a qualified SITL, and apply a similar level of critique to incoming intel as I would on an incident assignment.

I agree with you it’s a fine line on how to work with people doing this kind of work. There are a lot of scanner junkies trying to be the next big thing on Twitter, and there is definitely the possibility of them ruining it for everyone.

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There are so many good — if unofficial — sources of information out there now, and there’s no way that the team can disseminate that volume of information. You can ask for spot weather, and you can (cell coverage dependent, of course) quickly see what a RAWS is reporting. One is gonna be quicker than the other, and ideally both will help paint a fuller picture. You can ask how the fire looks on Acme Ridge, or pull up the Acme Ridge cam yourself. The CHP CAD can tell you a TON. Local FB groups can provide near-real time reports on conditions.

Relying too much on any one source can be dangerous, and writing off any non-official source can prevent the gathering of valuable intel. The source should always be considered, to be sure, but we have so many tools sitting at our fingertips that — when safe and reasonable to access them — it would be a shame not to utilize them.

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A spot weather forecast is meant for a future action, and requires several ground level observations. It is a planning tool… a RAWS is a current observation at a given location.
I would recommend against any unofficial sources for information.
Ask the UPS guy who told the building engineer at the Galleria Mall fire that the fire department wanted the sprinkler system shut down…
Open sourcing information comes with many hazards. Some of it will be biased, some of it will be from sources who have a for profit mind set, and some of it will be opinion or heresy.
Relying too much on one source… Well if it is the IMT or LE or AHJ… that would be and should be the definitive source. That is the official record.
That information is coming from sworn professionals who represent the public and are duty bound to give the facts of the situation.
There are professionals who have gone through extensive training on how and when to release information- and they are called PIO’s. They have the whole picture and understand the nuances and ramifications of their comments. They make those comments without bias or connection to any private entity.
I think recent events have proven the perils of following “unofficial” information.

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I definitely agree that official sources are a good thing, and that there’s more than ever a need to justify actions that are taken based on credible information. Credibility of a given source is crucial, certainly. An IMT with no local knowledge may not have a handle on local intel sources and it takes time — even careers — to figure these kinds of things out, quality and credibility issues notwithstanding. I completely respect your insight, and appreciate the conversation.

I don’t want to stray any further from the GIS and Incident Mapping topic, and may start a new “Official vs unofficial intel” type thread for further discussion

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This has been an argument since the beginning of time. The outcome of this argument is always the same. Nothing against the PIO ever, they are doing an amazing job, but they are heavily constrained by age of intel, agency regulations/policies, and most of the time simply not where The People are, so the message doesn’t get to The People.

The PIO position and office has evolved immensely over the last 10+ years thanks to some who push the agency forward, or belong to agencies who are progressive or see the benefit of it. People like LAFD’s Brian Humphrey, who was one of the FIRST to engage The People on yahoogroup email forums, facebook, twitter, instagram, reddit, etc. But just as the fires in the last 3-5 years have now become monsters, the amount of timely intel available has exploded, as well as The People are scattered amongst a million disparate social media and physical locations. Right when PIO’s seemed to have caught up with the problem, agencies loosening up a bit, every R5 forest active on facebook, calfire units on twitter and facebook with timely posts shortly after dispatches and stuff, the incident outruns them and just as their current statement of a fire being 1200 acres comes out, there’s an air attack estimate of 3500 acres, and a FIRIS mapping of 5000+ acres.

Just locally here in NorCal, a late chief of mine had a passion for the public engagement and education and I appreciated and encouraged his work. He could switch from IC during a major incident to a PIO with empathy and phrases that both educated and put the public at ease, then go right back to his incident, tweeting updates and photos along the way. I’m similarly engaged in my dept, dropping unofficial official summaries of working incidents in places where I know The People are, such as the deep pits of Facebook community groups etc, as insane as the signal noise ratio is in those places it’s where the bulk are today.

I’ve also been contacted by some DIVS, STL’s, single resources, COMT and COML’s while they are on incident, sometimes on the line, looking for more timely intel than they were getting on the incident. Fires have been so large and can’t scale overhead fast enough that the folks on line aren’t getting what they need at times. What’s the wind look like it’ll do here at this lat/lon for the next 2hours? What’s the lightning map say? Are there satellite hits 3 miles east of me? My ops map doesn’t go that far and if there is, I need to fallback and reengage. WTF is the tone for the tac on my div because the 205 I have is wrong. Does it look like we’ll get rotor support here or did another IA fire suck them all up? None of those people are making major tactical decisions based solely on my feedback but it probably had a lot of weight behind it thanks to established trust and relationships. That’s what all this is, established trusts, relationships, experience, credibility and history. Whether it’s agency to The People, agency to agency, incident to outside, outside to incident, etc. Each of us have a weight interpreted by every other reader. There are names here I’ve seen for 20 years in the online world of fire. When they speak, I listen. What I say might have 2oz weight to some who don’t know me, and a 100lb sack of wet cement to others who do.

If we’re all worried about someone misinterpreting someone or what they represent, then there would be no innovation in this industry. We’d all be back to ground zero, where the PIO is deathly afraid of lawsuit or retribution because they inserted half an ounce of opinion and it just happened to be wrong in hindsight (coughTamarackcough). Maybe we should make IMET the PIO, so we won’t get mad when the forecast for rain just maybe, perhaps, comes up dry. After all, we always forgive the weatherman.

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@Bogusthunder could you please elaborate on what “official” intel is?

What are the recent perils of “unofficial” information.

It is my opinion the AHJs are way behind the 8 ball because they do not staff nor process intel fast enough.

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Id much rather listen to what Zeke has to say than some briefing that has a bunch of old broad brushed data . This is my 40th fire season and his mapping is state of the art in my book .

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Is this the Wildland firefighting meme forum?

Oh sorry.

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What i find so hilarious is this website is called wildfireintel and we are debating weather intel should be put on this site. I have pmd a contributor to this thread hoping get a little more behind what is driving this discussion. I belive one post was in reference to my post of the FIRIS 1730 mapping mission of the FAWN and my mention of a few spots on the east side. The sensor on that aircraft is extremeley sensitive. I also made that post 2 hours after the mission and added the time it was made. Those spots could have been absorbed by the main fire by then who knows. If someone is reading a post i make with openly available data and not using the data themselves to drive their decisions I am not sure how they can even complain. If im a divs or ops or IC and i have this data im gonna make a radio call to the folks working in this area to make sure they are aware of it. I have used FIRIS spot fire data on an incident and it was amazing. Nobody else on the incident had the info on the ground but me. So this rhetoric about the data is for the decission makers and should be locked behind doors is major BS. Im on the edge as a divs making decisions. The data needs to be decentralized. Funny no issue showing where a hurricane is but a fire oh hell no thats priviledged info. Rant over.

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Pyro, keep doing what your doing. Your maps are great to see progression, spots, potential for spread, etc. If someone mistakes them as “official” maps then thats on them.

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I completely agree! Pyro, keep it going.

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Wow… you all really took this topic into some strange spaces…
Back to “My” original comment. Anything titled “Briefing” should come from an official source. It is America and you can all do what you want…
The irony is that all the posts seemed to corroborate what I was stating. All the different sources of information and so much of it is out of context, not connected to the actual events or based on bias.
So… the PIO, OSC or AHJ spend a lot of time cleaning that up, putting out unnecessary fires.
In the end … whatever…

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I heard your initial concern - that I make it clear I am not officially assigned to the fire and do what i can to ensure my reports are not mistaken as official info from the incident. I think it is a good point. Thanks for bringing it up.

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Well to clarify, your original post called him out whether he should be doing this or not because he isn’t assigned to the fire. He has never stated he was assigned to any of the fires, he is posting progression maps based on the untel from all sources…IAP’s, mapping flights, FLIR cameras, etc., to show what the fire has done, is doing and where it may go. He also never said these were official briefing maps, just information…like everyone else that puts together these and posts. Nobody else seems to have a problem with it and understands its just another tool to use especially when your on the line and using a map that was generated from intel that is at least 12 hours old vs. a mapping flight that happened 2 hours ago. Take it how you will but its my opinion.

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Let me add some context and intel.
The ATAK platform for Android is a game changer. To have the ability to load a map set for the day from the incident.
THEN get the REAL TIME intel and import that intel for Tactical decision making only adds to the SA available to personnel. As someone who “wears blue” and spent 7 shifts on the Dixie as a DIV “assigned” to the East Side. The TEAM products were adequate at best. But the base maps from each team had their positive and negatives. But using ATAK and building a map set. Then getting the NIROPS, COURTNEY, FIREWATCH intel as it was uploaded into the FTP site WAS HUGE in decision making. All that intel was placed in a PUBLIC ACCESSIBLE location. Additionally, adding my email to the “Intel section” got me access to near real time KML data. I just needed service to access. Every CF CO have access to REAL TIME fire modeling at their fingertips thanks to the WFA app that California purchased from Technosylva. My point in all of this if we try to control the information, we will lose the battle before its even started. IMHO, what @pyrogeography does is takes the LCES and provides a steroid shot to the “C”. Now an argument can be made that the general population doesn’t understand LCES and could care less until it effects them. But I will say this. This site picked up where the Hotlist left off. The SME, available Intel, polite and professional discussions are light years ahead of what the old site had at the end. As someone else mentioned “you just have to adjust your personal filters for the signal to noise ratio” with all of the commercially available intel that is available in 2021. What Zeke does is just that, he tells it like it is, from an unbiased professional point if view.

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Plugging Cal Topo some more - it’s a great resource for making a quick map on-the-fly before an incident is evolved enough to have someone else making maps for you. It even has ICS symbology built into it, so you can draw a dozer line on the map and give it the XXXX symbols, or add a water source or staging area. It also plays nice with Avenza - you can save a KML of points or lines out of Avenza, and load them into Cal Topo and overlay them on a USGS topo, hillshade, or aerial photo.

Here is a 2-minute map made of the Rancho Fire in Tehama County that uses the public FIRIS perimeter of the fire with structures and wind vectors.

If you sign up for a (inexpensive) Cal Topo account, you can save your projects, and share them as a URL, like the link, below… You can also save a geo-PDF out of here and load it into Avenza or ATAK.

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100% I will be teaching a pseudo type 3 plans class to our folks in a month or so. Our dept bought CAL-TOPO Team account for this exact reason. We need a relatively easy mapping tool to create the next operational period map. No need for a degree in GIS. Down and dirty map that is geospatial and easy to share.

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