I would strongly encourage anyone up against logistic issues report and outline the situation through a formal process.
If you don’t, than we’re not doing our part to help make sure it doesn’t happen on the next fire.
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Milehighbar, I believe this is the best, and one of the only ways we can figure out what was/is wrong. Reading these posts demonstrates it is a multi-faceted issue, and like the Swiss cheese model (bad place to use that term) folks need the write-ups to do any kind of forensic analysis. So, comment and complain, but those directly affected please write it up. Stick to the facts, keep opinions out of the document, and provide specific examples of the issues. It just isn’t about accountability, we have 2022 staring at us and we need to solve a lot of issues if we are going to survive another bad fire year.
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What exactly is the formal process to do this.
We got an email from a person with firsthand knowledge of the matter. Here are a couple things they said I could share.
What’s up with catering?
The first resources to respond were told that we were only able to provide MREs and water and other basics until we could get that function up and running. We were able to get some sack lunches starting day 2, but once the road was cut off we struggled to do even that. There have been no caterers available. Every team (Type 3, helpers from Type 2, and the Type 1 team) have requested them. Our ad-hoc logistic group worked every angle they could think of to try to get crews fresh, if not hot, food. Efforts to use the lodge staff for crews on the north side of the fire broke down because of evacuations and supply chain disruptions. The local community stepped up and helped start feeding crews that were on the south/lower side of the fire but were unable to set the same up for resources on the north side. The lack of food-service labor and difficulty providing food in remote locations is real, and when the team was operating on a shoestring there was only so much effort that could be spared from the fire fight.
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Pisspump, Good question, and I am not sure I have the one best answer. It isn’t like there is a “suggestion box” in camp, or if there is one (I have seen them) that it will guarantee it’s read and forwarded. Wanting to keep folks from running afoul of local politics or getting anyone blackballed or tagged as whiners–I’ll gladly take suggestions on what is the best method.
EDIT NOTE: Read sfdtiller’s comment below first. That is the best method to resolving issues. If that doesn’t work, and only then, come back to this comment.
I believe, and others can correct or chime in, there are at least two places it could or should wind up. One is more direct than the other, but both might be needed to address acute (IMT) as well as chronic (system) issues.
The IMT works for the Agency Administrator (AA) and is responsible to them. That should include an evaluation by the AA as part of their closeout process. Substantive facts on their performance can be forwarded to the AA through the AA or their Rep. Locals might have a feeling for the viability of this method helping the process. Whining wouldn’t be receptively received, but substantiated facts, especially from different sources, are difficult to excuse.
The second method is going back through your home agency, but talking to your supervisors (agency head) about it first. What you want is that it eventually gets to all members of CWCG. Whether or not it is filtered or submitted anonymously or summarized by the head of your agency and then forwarded (withholding submitter’s names) will have to be decided.
To assist the process and have the issue taken seriously there are items you should and should not do.
Each occurrence or event you wish to document should include, date, time, title of who you spoke with and facility, what you were told, and any follow-up. Keep the Red, Blue, and Green out of it completely and approach it from a factual standpoint of titles. It a specific person has to be mentioned, then a last name and title would be about the only detail I would document. Be colorblind if you can.
“On 9/18/21 at 0650 our STEN went to pick up lunches at the refer trailer since we were assigned to DIV S for the day Operational period. We were told by the SPUL that the lunches would not be available until 0745. At 0800 our STEN returned to the refer trailer and observed a sign that read, “No lunches are available today.” Or STEN went to supply to obtain additional MRE’s but were told by the SPUL that they were out and wouldn’t have any more than day. We did obtain two cases of water and one of Gatorade, but were denied a second case of Gatorade due to limited stock.”
I know, this is a pain. This example shows at least two issues. After untangling the mess, it could be that IMT botched the lunch order or maybe the caterer couldn’t fill based on the time they received the order - so at least one is a possible acute (performance issue) problem, maybe two. The second issue, there is a nationwide shortage of Gatorade right now, so that is a chronic (system issue) that might be addressed further up the supply chain. prior to 2022.
Bullet pointed facts without opinions are essential. No comments like "in the past 20 years I’ve never" is an opinion and like it or not, someone is going to say, well, if they had been here 24 years ago they would know better. So, just the facts. There is still some of the “network” around so sticking to verifiable facts are best.
In summary, the AA and CWCG are the two best places I know if to help the system.
Does anyone have better or alternative suggestions?
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Pyrogeography, this is a great example that could be helpful at both the IMT and CWCG level. There are efforts being tried and failing at the IMT level, some extraordinary attempts, and then there is quite possibly a complete failure on the administrative side to get outside of their silo of excellence and connect one colors’ resource with another colors’ needs – with the boots on the ground stuck on an unintended diet as a result. People who get off work at five and drive home (or these days just walk down their hallway) to get dinner should be on the same diet plan until they make some calls and think outside their artificially imposed fiscal box.
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One of the best avenues for food issues is going to the food unit leader or if one is not assigned going to the Logs chief. I am currently on a fire and had a person go to the caterer complaining about issues from his 40 days here. He has never spoken to anyone in logistics. We can’t fix something that we do not know is occurring.
As a food unit leader we have some leeway in how we do things and specifically for food. an example currently, When I arrived I looked at the menu and asked the caterer to make changes for the breakfast items, remove the syrup items and replace them with something else like biscuits and gravy. This takes time since the caterer usually orders for 3-4 days in advance.
As far as running low on items, water and sport drink have been an issue all year. We have had times where we have had to resort to filling QBES with water since no vendors have been able to supply what we need. We also ordered drip drop and other additions to make up for the lack of sport drink.
Lunches running low at the beginning of an incident is a multi faceted fail but happens. Lunches have to be kept cold, so if we don’t have a reefer we need to order as close to the exact number as possible. When we have 4 crews show up late, or crews double lunching then we run low sometimes. If they run out after an incident has been ongoing then that usually is a food unit leader failure to prepare.
Not all food unit leaders or even teams are willing to make changes to a menu or work with the caterer to supply the items that people want or need.
As far as food quality that is a subjective term and we have very little we can do to fix it. The contract spells out specific things and some caterers will not make any changes. Other caterers are willing to bend over backwards to make the crews life better.
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On another note about caterers, you have 4 levels of national caterer. The middle of the road equate to eating at Applebees, Chilis, Olive Garden in food quality. You have a few who work hard to be bette than that middle tier. Then we have the tier, I use the comparison of eating at Dennys sober at 2 pm. It makes a turd but you will hate it going in and probably going out.
Lastly, we have the few that when you see them show up you stock up on MRE’s.
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There have been lots of valid issues brought up here affecting support and it can’t be all blamed on the IMTs.
One new thing that has not be mentioned are the new “Shelf Stable Food Boxes” available at LSK (South Zone Cache) now. They are an assortment of freeze dried, canned and dried (jerky, fruit). Each box is designed to feed 2 people for 3 days and can easily be supplemented with fresh fruit and veges. We just finished using them on the SQF Walkers fire, and all the feedback from the crews that were spiked out for 10-14 days was very positive. We tried some hot cans, but when “you live by air you die by air” kept getting smoked out, these were a great substitute. They are just the right size to be used with pack animals also which we had on stand-by.
These boxes were designed in response to COVID last year and were tested in R1 and 4. They are now available in most caches. If anyone is interested in pictures and inventory pm me emails.
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Thank you for sharing that, pyro. As a witness to the situation from the day the fires began till today, I’ve nearly bit my tongue off to keep from commenting.
The folks on the ground, from the Teams 3, 2 and 1, have been absolutely breaking their backs - running on coffee and no sleep for days - trying to fill in the gaps and get orders both filled and delivered. The good people of Three Rivers have really stepped up to help them. And the delay in getting the resources they’ve submitted orders for is like nothing I have ever seen in 21 years in the business.
Nothing but respect for all involved.
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sfdtiller. Well, I guess I should have stated the obvious, but I didn’t. Thanks for doing that. Kind of a fail on my side for that omission.
I added an EDIT NOTE to my comments to direct them to your suggestion first.
Doing exactly what you stated is the most direct and best method. My suggestions should be reserved for if you have discussed it and it does not resolve the problem, or you are blown off, or going through the IMT wire chart does not work. Then try my suggestions.
Coming in to an incident is always difficult. Coming into an incident from out of region is very difficult because you don’t have all the personal contacts and names that a local IMT might have.
Coming into any incident this year when the non-wildfire world can’t seems to keep items in stock or delivered – and you want to get into the supply chain at the last minute with lots of orders, there are going to be huge issues.
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Be Prepared!
An already busy season is probably gonna get busier.
A stretched thin supply chain is going to get worse.
The private industry that we rely on (food service, fire supplies, fuel, delivery drivers) is chronically short staffed and has a high turnover rate. The fire service itself is short staffed, CF statewide has had trouble with ABH from LG due to vacancies in LG agencies. I have many contacts in large LG departments that have been refusing many orders just to maintain daily staffing.
Small couple day fires are having problems with logistics and resources, we are having a high demand low supply issue on almost all facets. I have experienced some oddball stuff that once explained you get it.
IMTs tell us it’s a crap sandwich, it’s being worked on, and be honest. I had a recent fire where a fuel truck couldn’t be had for 4 days which created problems but the command staff told us from the get go that this stuff was ordered but a vendor could not be obtained. We found ways to make it work for all involved.
Crews across the spectrum take some time and ask yourself, when that order comes down can we deal with a lack of supplies. Do we have extra water, MREs, batteries, gear for those cold nights? A couple bags of liquid IV or drip drop don’t cost too much and take up little space. Are you carrying extra DEF for your vehicle? Can you hand program your radio when there is no one available for a clone? Can you grab a qr code and save an IAP copy on your phone because printed ones are unavailable? Save a map in avenza or atak because printed ones are not available? Lack of logs suck but I see a lot of people caught with their pants down when they could have made their situation better with some basic preparedness.
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Lol! at inmates are easier for sure
It is not just the KNP Complex. I have been on 4 rolls this year to major incidents and all have had supply chain issues. Just like nearly every business in the country the supply chain is in bad shape. Has everyone looked at the shelves of their local grocery, hardware, and department stores? Everything is in short supply. When a Team can not find the items we need/want, it will not be there. Everyone needs to run with the PACE model. How are each of use prepared to do the job at hand when our perferred /primary plan fails.
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Every fire (5) I have been on this summer has had issues. Some, the boots on the ground will rarely see. I have run out of water, Ice, sport drink and lunches. Caterers have had to change menus or feed some crews chicken while others got pork.
The team at KNP has only been there a few days, I don’t know how many folks were on the fire in the beginning but a caterer won’t be ordered until the number on the ground exceeds 150 people. Then you have to get the caterer enroute from there dispatch point which could be Montana. Plus many caterers have fulfilled there obligations and are not going out right now, leaving the system short.
Comparing Dixie, Caldor and KNP is apples to oranges, not enough writing space to explain why, but every fire is different whether it is operational or logistical.
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Specifications for the Shelf Stable Food Boxes can be found here:
https://govtribe.com/opportunity/federal-contract-opportunity/shelf-stable-food-boxes-12024b20q9019
Click on “Attachment 1 - Specifications for Contractor or Agency Built Shelf Stable Food Box.pdf” [3 page PDF]
Sounds like a shelf stable variant of the Alaska food boxes. Great idea!
Shelf Stable Food Box aka “Nonperishable food box”
2 persons / 3 days
summary only - refer to RFQ for specifics
Box should have shelf life of 18 months. Box dimensions 16x10x12 single wall cardboard box. “[E]ntire contents shall be documented on a packing list and included inside the carton.” Top ‘parallel’ taped for easy open to avoid accidentally cutting contents inside. Interior efficiently packed including within the included ‘hot water cook can’ (4 quart pot with bail and lid).
All commercially packaged, no secondary packaging of bulk items, no glass packaging. Expiration date marked on box exterior.
Freeze-dried: 6 packages entrees, 4 packages breakfasts, 2 packages desserts
Dehydrated: 2 packages dried fruit (>20oz, <40oz, 6 oz if free dried), 2 packages dried meat (>20oz)
Canned or pouched: 4 cans/pouches non-meat protein, 4 cans ‘hearty’ soup, 4 cans fruit, 4 cans vegetables, 6 cans animal product (3 varieties such as chicken, tuna, salmon, oysters, etc but 1 must be SPAM, 30oz total or more), 2 ‘other’ such as chiles, olives, pickles
Other: 8 oz salsa or 10 packets hot sauce; 6 packages nuts/trail mix (>9.6 oz), 6 snack bars, 4 candy bars, 4 sleeves/2 boxes crackers, 8 packets peanut butter, 10 packets jelly/jam, 8 packets instant oatmeal, 2 packages tortillas (>1 yr shelf life), 2 packages instant mashed potatoes, 2 packages rice/grains (‘boil in bag’ type), 2 packages noodles
Powdered beverages in resealable bag: 6 packages hot drink mix, 24 ‘singles’ instant coffee, 6 servings electrolyte / sports beverage
Accessories: 2x quart bags, 2x gallon bags. 12x paper bowls, 12x hot paper cups.
1x 4 quart pot with bail type handle, with lid.
Separate bag: 2x P-38 or P-51 small can openers, 6 packets utensils, 4 linear feet of HD aluminum foil, 2 trash bags, 18 fingerbowl moist towelettes, 10 ‘bath-in-a-bag’
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Well hell, that looks better than some if the crap coming out of the national caterers.
Old school forestry dining out on the line. Miss those days.
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How does this compare to MREs?
I actually like modern MREs, better than any canned food box I ever had.
I guess this stuff is not constrained by light weight, not meant to be carried on a person.
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Whoever came up with this frequents Costco on a budget. (I only know cuz my college diet consisted of most of this.)
Do these contain jalapeño or bacon cheese spread?
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