I initially posted something that upset one user here which wasn’t my intention nor would it ever be. My name is Dave and I live in a small trailer in North Carolina. My family and I live from week to week and that is how it is. I have worked my tail off my entire life and still do, making under 25 a year. So, for the record, I am not “In the biz!” as was said of me by a tumbleweed. It took me five years to save up to pay for the patent. So I am sorry that I am a little anxious to get it out there. I have figured out over time that the majority of the people here are firefighters communicating with each other. And I had no idea of that fact when I came here and posted. I have mad respect for all of you who fight fires and I appreciate all of your hard and dedicated service. My thing was to get this out there because I have had it for so long waiting and waiting for years to offer help. At any rate this is where I landed. They say things happen for a reason. I am trying to find someone that can invest in or lease the patent. I have no idea where to go or what to do so I came here. I have created and patented a misting system that can save homes and property in the paths of wildfires. It is a simple misting system that connects to a standard hose. This system is composed of two parts : The roof misting system, made of a gridwork of solid pipe that is raised off of the roof six to eight inches and The mist net system which is made out of a series of silicone tubing and hangs down from the edge of the roof to the ground and held down with a tent stakes. the system connects to itself and a water supply with standard hose fittings. I have had a video made and it costed more than originally projected so it took a lot longer to pay for it than I anticipated and that is why it has taken me so long to come back. I do apologize. Now can somebody tell me where or how I can upload this video for y’all to see?
Put it on Youtube and share a link here.
Have you tested this project? If so, under what type of conditions?
Yes I tested the simple concept before making a prototype and filing for a patent. With the pipe gridwork and the mist net holes at approximately 1-1 1/2 inches square with 36 mist ports in that area it works the way the video shows, allowing no embers thru to the parts of the house that will ignite. So what it does is completely soak whatever its covering and continues to emit mist to fight the flying fire embers while the house or property is in danger. it will be able to take heats up to approx 1000 degrees.The melting temp can be controlled with different materials. This is the beginning of a product. It will not help all because some homes will be too close to other things and structures that are on fire bringing the heat to a level that the house or property cannot tolerate. But hopefully it will help enough people to make a difference.
While this may work under mild to moderate conditions in some parts of the country, it probably won’t work where the most destructive fast moving fires occur. The concept is good and has been used and adapted by homeowners in some areas, it is dependant on many things. Power…usually power is lost in most areas a fire is occurring. Water, again dependant on power, and without an independant power source, it cannot be relied upon under such conditions.
How does the hose stand up under heat and extreme UV exposure that is constant in the west and Southwest?
Don’t get me wrong, development of ways to live safely in the UI is what we need. I would suggest testing in the area as where it would be be most marketable and exposed to the most extreme fire conditions, heat, wind, UV exposure, large scale embercast, etc.
I have already considered and been asked some questions about power and water issues. And have also considered some of the other things you are addressing. Although I do know a lot about these things in general, I will not try to say that I know all because I do not. However, I will try to address what I do know. I do know that this system can be made to withstand 500 - 1000 degrees easily, that is the system itself. The house may be a different issue entirely based on its construct. With a fast moving fire, and nothing of significance in size too close by to bring the heat, it should do fine since it was designed to stop the flying fire embers from igniting the home. So the power/water issue can be solved a few different ways, depending upon where you are and what your resources are. I would say wherever you are it would be pretty easy to set up a large water tower to feed it during the trying time of the fire if it approaches. The pressure of the water in the tank, if large enough, will be enough to keep the system pressured up. Maybe a small generator, or even a pump, or both, dedicated to only this task if it comes up. The roof part of the system, can basically be made by any rigid material, preferably ones that withstand high heats. My prototype for the roof system is made out of copper. Copper does well in the hi heat and UV exposure. The my prototype of the silicone hose net system that is meant to hook up to the roof system only if the fire could get close, is not meant to withstand any prolonged exposure to any of the above. And will be open for improvement in the near future. Thank you for your comments and suggestion firedog1. Hope you have a nice day.
While there are many issues with this concept, structure ignition studies are suggesting most ignitions are from ember cast and not radiant heat although my experience is a bit suspicious of this. But it is likely this would be effective at substantially reducing ember cast ignitions. ember cast ignitions
Totally dependant on gpm of the system.
Large diameter ember cast will easily overcome a mister. If in fact these are masters and I assume larger volume is available, misting systems are by design supposed to evaporate, and will not support the wetting and cooling by design when it is 110 and a 35 mph wind with 5% RH, just throwing out some numbers. To sustain this from a pressure tank similar to something included in a well system, would require a larger volume to sustain for any period of time. It is something I have seen in several homade systems over the years, but effectiveness I cannot account for.
Home ignitions in wildfire include several factors and when these are in alignment, not much will save a home except and maybe even the most important factor defensible space. Also consider the roof construction type, tile that is well fitted isn’t the issue, exposed eve’s, and unprotected attic openings are the bigger problem.
No poo pooing the concept, but this idea is well vetted.
And one other thing I forgot. What is the deployment time for this system? Looks like it would take quite a while.
The control of the water flow could possibly be by the diameter of the pipe and or tubing. The smaller the diameter of the hole in the pipe, the less it takes to “pressure it up” and keep it going. It could possibly help with longer run time. My misting system, by design, is made to saturate the host and keep wet, not cool. I put approx 36 misting ports within one and a half inches, they are on four sides of the pipe equally measured. The roof part of the system is secured to the roof 4-8 inches off of the roof to act as insulation for saturation. Entire system also has the effect to act like a wall to incoming flying fire embers since the holes are no bigger than 1 and one half inches. This was not made in thought of any other “system”. It was made for the sole purpose of its intent. Like I said to begin with, this will not save all. But it will save. I appreciate all of the feed back, but more importantly, I appreciate all of your hard work and service. Thank you
How about some more food for thought. You get this system deployed, contractors licensed to install it are going to target any and everyone willing to buy it. Even if the house is in an untenable situation. Now this system is going to be expensive so the homeowner that buys it will have some means. Now this house in an untenable situation burns down anyway, that homeowner is going to sue you. They may or may not win a judgement but there will be a lot of legal fees for you or your insurance company to pay. Who is going to insure your business and at what cost?
What about water quality issues(hard water, etc) I have used high pressure misting system’s for dust control in crushing & screening applications. .5-1.0 GPM heads at 40 PSI work very well. But the Achilles Heal is water quality. Filter Mesh of a min of #200 is needed to keep the orifice open and functioning. That size mesh with a min of 40psi is a task. Finally, if your talking 36 ports at .5GPM that’s 18gal/min or 1080 gal per hour. For a size comparison a construction site drop tank for water trucks is 10,000 gallons. I’m not sure you could achieve 40psi with gravity alone.
Good luck with this project.
I guess if everyone that invented something worried about getting sued then we would be in an undeveloped world. Not trying to get snippy or anything, just saying. We need to focus on the need to help these people rather than trying to get someone trying to help to bow out, not gonna happen with me. I am so focused on this that I have been working on other issues with different fueled fires. Like ethanol based fire, also the forest fires and petroleum fires. All require different attention to extinguish. I’m trying to make a difference. Can one man make a difference? Maybe. Some may argue that Jesus did. But he did it with the help of others. And that’s how we need to approach all things. With a little unity, a little community, and a little love in the heart for someone or thing other than ourselves. I will have to check out the hard water factors in different parts of the country where this may be an issue and see what can be done about that. I do not think, however, that water pressure will be an issue. The size of the filter and intake and out flow will mater but where it is may not. Say the filter screen or whatever is used is 3/4 of the way to the top of the storage container. This will keep much of the pressure from the water weight in tacked. For the saturation to occur, the “mist” holes are more like spray coming out of a manual bottle sprayer, so it actually doesn’t take much pressure for it to work. The amount of water that may have to be stored, on the other hand may deter some. The cost may deter some. But such is life. We do what we do and move on. I’m constantly working on other things that will assist this system and all of you hard working public service men and women. I’m working on a water slime that will stick to the object that’s on fire and continue to snuff it out instead of running off and away. A question for anyone and everyone. Isn’t ethanol like moonshine, homemade? If so its water based and can be diluted with water. Water saturated sand ever been tried for ethanol? May help. Just throwing it out there for y’all to think about. I can not tell you how much respect I have for all of you for fighting that fire fight. Thank all of you for your comments and your heroic service.
I totally agree with everything you say, fire hardening and defensible space should be the first go to to protect structures pre fire. Conditions you mention you are simply screwed if you have head fire in alignment without large fuel reduction zone between structure and the fire along with d-space and fire hardening that includes screens over the gutters.
I’m not saying you have to be afraid of being sued. I am making a pretty specific prediction that you will be sued as part of this game. And asking you what are you going to do to mitigate that fact. If you develop a system that works and can be broadly marketed, then you deserve to make a lot of money over a lot of years as it is deployed. Lawyers are going to try to take that money from you. What are you going to do about that?
Another thing here. Inventors and developers come on here regularly with ideas such as this. We have seen dozens of variations on this theme. Always involving water here and water there. Generally speaking, water is not the answer to wildfire. Bare dirt and things that don’t burn are what stops fire. Things that contain water are used on less-active portions of the fire when they can influence its progress somewhat. But the amount of energy release from a developed fire is just mind boggling. The real solution is to remove the energy source before it has a chance to release that energy (burn). If a homeowner won’t pony up to do that, they are already somewhat fighting against reality.
There is no part of this that is a game. What I intent to do about being sued, which you say will happen, should be none of your concern. Oh, I see, you have judged me thinking I care about money, lol, too funny. I care about people, about souls. As far as what others do here, others do. Everyone will see when this system starts helping homeowners. And I will still move forward with my efforts to help save all homes, life and property that could be effected by fire and continue developing new ideas to help those that serve us as firefighters and act as hero’s.
One thing, I would say here is that if you’re basing your protection model on a 1,000 degree baseline for your system, that’s pretty much in today’s world, the incipient stage. Most fires that would need to be protected by a system like this would be starting at 1,500-2,000 degrees with the likelihood of seeing temperatures in the 2,000 to almost 3,000.
Cases in point, we will often see aluminum flows on vehicles and other items which has a melting temp of 1220 degrees, same thing with glass, which is in the 14-1,600 degree range. Copper tubing which is very expensive is going to melt in the high 1,900’s so that’s getting close to working temps of these fires but it will fail in a massive blaze.
As with most, of these events, commercial power is either out for safety reasons or due to lines being down so, you cannot rely on having an available water source other that a manual intervention device such as a floto-pump or small gasoline power pump to pull water from a local on-site pond or pool.
While I think your concept has some definite merits, you need to incorporate these things into your baseline considerations because these a factors we face on most of these very destructive fires. Lack of power, that lack of power effects the water distribution systems, extreme heat both radiant and convected transfer, high winds which will change the effectiveness of the water spray grid on your system, reduction in available water and pressure in the system for fire personnel.
Most of us commenting on this product design work in region 5, California more specifically. I think the man’s concept is definitely a viable concept to help protect buildings in 99% of fires the US sees. The OP stated he was from N. Carolina where fuel types and climate dictate fire conditions much differently than they do out here. As I see it, the southwest US sees the apex of fire activity in the world, maybe rivaled by Australia on bad years. My question the the original poster is have you or anyone you are working with came and experienced fire conditions during the August-December months on the west coast? If not, I would make that suggestion. For all us regulars on here. Make some realistic suggestions, this system is not designed for direct flame impingement or a major preheat from an advancing flame front with no defensible space where we would see over 1000 degree temps up close to a structure, but would work ahead of a flame front in conjunction with defensible space or on flanks in conjunction with defensible space. The defensible space stops/lessens the behavior and the wet structure/water barrier picks up ember cast. The only problem I see is a reliable water source. Yes a gravity fed tank would supply, for a while. But with no one around under evacuation hours or days before the fire advance who would charge the system? If the water source is damaged in the fire the system would fail as well. A generator supplying water from a protected tank/well system would be your best bet. Once again though, if this were my project I would market it as another layer to home defense in support of defensible space and better yet, proper land management. If the fire dies down hundreds of feet before it reaches your structure and does not have a pathway to actively burn to the structure on the ground, this system could very well defend from embers that sneak there way to a building. I would market it in that sense, as another tool for the home owner in conjunction with home hardening, defensible space and proper land management and make that clear. This will help with the lawsuit suggestion as well, which is very realistic in our world on the west coast. Keep doing your research and testing and honing your idea. I think you are on the right track, and while we all know that no structure is every fully safe from wildfire everything a homeowner can do to give us an edge, or buy us some time helps combat the devastation and gives us a chance to turn the corner and save as much as we possibly can.
Hold on there a minute Skippy. Birken did not mean you are trying to play games, he was referring to the ever present world of specialized marketing and sales in a very specific narrow market, like it or not it is a game . Many of us have seen ideas come and go, for me personally over 3 decades. Some have led to amazing developments in both professional and private fire protection. Others, such as dropping huge water balloons from planes are just amazing to fathom in their naivety.
The fire slime you mention i assume is a gel product. There are many gel and foam products on the market that are very effective for the private homeowner.
You came to a professional wildland fire discussion page full of A personality firefighters and fire service Chief officers who have more than a little knowledge of our profession.
You are correct, we could care less about who will or might sue you, it was a watch out suggestion, because like it or not, this society is full of people who want to blame someone else.
You may be correct that this system will be effective in the Carolinas where fire intensity is much lower and frequency is much lower.
Remember that gravity fed systems are ok for a kitchen faucet, but at .5 psi per foot of height, you will need some serious elevation to make a spray or mister system effective, even after considering volume.
I mentioned in one of my first posts that we need innovators to look at solving issues, please keep working, but don’t get offended when constructive criticism is offered.