While there are many issues with this concept, structure ignition studies are suggesting most ignitions are from ember cast and not radiant heat although my experience is a bit suspicious of this. But it is likely this would be effective at substantially reducing ember cast ignitions. ember cast ignitions
Totally dependant on gpm of the system.
Large diameter ember cast will easily overcome a mister. If in fact these are masters and I assume larger volume is available, misting systems are by design supposed to evaporate, and will not support the wetting and cooling by design when it is 110 and a 35 mph wind with 5% RH, just throwing out some numbers. To sustain this from a pressure tank similar to something included in a well system, would require a larger volume to sustain for any period of time. It is something I have seen in several homade systems over the years, but effectiveness I cannot account for.
Home ignitions in wildfire include several factors and when these are in alignment, not much will save a home except and maybe even the most important factor defensible space. Also consider the roof construction type, tile that is well fitted isn’t the issue, exposed eve’s, and unprotected attic openings are the bigger problem.
No poo pooing the concept, but this idea is well vetted.
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And one other thing I forgot. What is the deployment time for this system? Looks like it would take quite a while.
The control of the water flow could possibly be by the diameter of the pipe and or tubing. The smaller the diameter of the hole in the pipe, the less it takes to “pressure it up” and keep it going. It could possibly help with longer run time. My misting system, by design, is made to saturate the host and keep wet, not cool. I put approx 36 misting ports within one and a half inches, they are on four sides of the pipe equally measured. The roof part of the system is secured to the roof 4-8 inches off of the roof to act as insulation for saturation. Entire system also has the effect to act like a wall to incoming flying fire embers since the holes are no bigger than 1 and one half inches. This was not made in thought of any other “system”. It was made for the sole purpose of its intent. Like I said to begin with, this will not save all. But it will save. I appreciate all of the feed back, but more importantly, I appreciate all of your hard work and service. Thank you
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How about some more food for thought. You get this system deployed, contractors licensed to install it are going to target any and everyone willing to buy it. Even if the house is in an untenable situation. Now this system is going to be expensive so the homeowner that buys it will have some means. Now this house in an untenable situation burns down anyway, that homeowner is going to sue you. They may or may not win a judgement but there will be a lot of legal fees for you or your insurance company to pay. Who is going to insure your business and at what cost?
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What about water quality issues(hard water, etc) I have used high pressure misting system’s for dust control in crushing & screening applications. .5-1.0 GPM heads at 40 PSI work very well. But the Achilles Heal is water quality. Filter Mesh of a min of #200 is needed to keep the orifice open and functioning. That size mesh with a min of 40psi is a task. Finally, if your talking 36 ports at .5GPM that’s 18gal/min or 1080 gal per hour. For a size comparison a construction site drop tank for water trucks is 10,000 gallons. I’m not sure you could achieve 40psi with gravity alone.
Good luck with this project.
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I guess if everyone that invented something worried about getting sued then we would be in an undeveloped world. Not trying to get snippy or anything, just saying. We need to focus on the need to help these people rather than trying to get someone trying to help to bow out, not gonna happen with me. I am so focused on this that I have been working on other issues with different fueled fires. Like ethanol based fire, also the forest fires and petroleum fires. All require different attention to extinguish. I’m trying to make a difference. Can one man make a difference? Maybe. Some may argue that Jesus did. But he did it with the help of others. And that’s how we need to approach all things. With a little unity, a little community, and a little love in the heart for someone or thing other than ourselves. I will have to check out the hard water factors in different parts of the country where this may be an issue and see what can be done about that. I do not think, however, that water pressure will be an issue. The size of the filter and intake and out flow will mater but where it is may not. Say the filter screen or whatever is used is 3/4 of the way to the top of the storage container. This will keep much of the pressure from the water weight in tacked. For the saturation to occur, the “mist” holes are more like spray coming out of a manual bottle sprayer, so it actually doesn’t take much pressure for it to work. The amount of water that may have to be stored, on the other hand may deter some. The cost may deter some. But such is life. We do what we do and move on. I’m constantly working on other things that will assist this system and all of you hard working public service men and women. I’m working on a water slime that will stick to the object that’s on fire and continue to snuff it out instead of running off and away. A question for anyone and everyone. Isn’t ethanol like moonshine, homemade? If so its water based and can be diluted with water. Water saturated sand ever been tried for ethanol? May help. Just throwing it out there for y’all to think about. I can not tell you how much respect I have for all of you for fighting that fire fight. Thank all of you for your comments and your heroic service.
I totally agree with everything you say, fire hardening and defensible space should be the first go to to protect structures pre fire. Conditions you mention you are simply screwed if you have head fire in alignment without large fuel reduction zone between structure and the fire along with d-space and fire hardening that includes screens over the gutters.
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I’m not saying you have to be afraid of being sued. I am making a pretty specific prediction that you will be sued as part of this game. And asking you what are you going to do to mitigate that fact. If you develop a system that works and can be broadly marketed, then you deserve to make a lot of money over a lot of years as it is deployed. Lawyers are going to try to take that money from you. What are you going to do about that?
Another thing here. Inventors and developers come on here regularly with ideas such as this. We have seen dozens of variations on this theme. Always involving water here and water there. Generally speaking, water is not the answer to wildfire. Bare dirt and things that don’t burn are what stops fire. Things that contain water are used on less-active portions of the fire when they can influence its progress somewhat. But the amount of energy release from a developed fire is just mind boggling. The real solution is to remove the energy source before it has a chance to release that energy (burn). If a homeowner won’t pony up to do that, they are already somewhat fighting against reality.
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There is no part of this that is a game. What I intent to do about being sued, which you say will happen, should be none of your concern. Oh, I see, you have judged me thinking I care about money, lol, too funny. I care about people, about souls. As far as what others do here, others do. Everyone will see when this system starts helping homeowners. And I will still move forward with my efforts to help save all homes, life and property that could be effected by fire and continue developing new ideas to help those that serve us as firefighters and act as hero’s.
One thing, I would say here is that if you’re basing your protection model on a 1,000 degree baseline for your system, that’s pretty much in today’s world, the incipient stage. Most fires that would need to be protected by a system like this would be starting at 1,500-2,000 degrees with the likelihood of seeing temperatures in the 2,000 to almost 3,000.
Cases in point, we will often see aluminum flows on vehicles and other items which has a melting temp of 1220 degrees, same thing with glass, which is in the 14-1,600 degree range. Copper tubing which is very expensive is going to melt in the high 1,900’s so that’s getting close to working temps of these fires but it will fail in a massive blaze.
As with most, of these events, commercial power is either out for safety reasons or due to lines being down so, you cannot rely on having an available water source other that a manual intervention device such as a floto-pump or small gasoline power pump to pull water from a local on-site pond or pool.
While I think your concept has some definite merits, you need to incorporate these things into your baseline considerations because these a factors we face on most of these very destructive fires. Lack of power, that lack of power effects the water distribution systems, extreme heat both radiant and convected transfer, high winds which will change the effectiveness of the water spray grid on your system, reduction in available water and pressure in the system for fire personnel.
Most of us commenting on this product design work in region 5, California more specifically. I think the man’s concept is definitely a viable concept to help protect buildings in 99% of fires the US sees. The OP stated he was from N. Carolina where fuel types and climate dictate fire conditions much differently than they do out here. As I see it, the southwest US sees the apex of fire activity in the world, maybe rivaled by Australia on bad years. My question the the original poster is have you or anyone you are working with came and experienced fire conditions during the August-December months on the west coast? If not, I would make that suggestion. For all us regulars on here. Make some realistic suggestions, this system is not designed for direct flame impingement or a major preheat from an advancing flame front with no defensible space where we would see over 1000 degree temps up close to a structure, but would work ahead of a flame front in conjunction with defensible space or on flanks in conjunction with defensible space. The defensible space stops/lessens the behavior and the wet structure/water barrier picks up ember cast. The only problem I see is a reliable water source. Yes a gravity fed tank would supply, for a while. But with no one around under evacuation hours or days before the fire advance who would charge the system? If the water source is damaged in the fire the system would fail as well. A generator supplying water from a protected tank/well system would be your best bet. Once again though, if this were my project I would market it as another layer to home defense in support of defensible space and better yet, proper land management. If the fire dies down hundreds of feet before it reaches your structure and does not have a pathway to actively burn to the structure on the ground, this system could very well defend from embers that sneak there way to a building. I would market it in that sense, as another tool for the home owner in conjunction with home hardening, defensible space and proper land management and make that clear. This will help with the lawsuit suggestion as well, which is very realistic in our world on the west coast. Keep doing your research and testing and honing your idea. I think you are on the right track, and while we all know that no structure is every fully safe from wildfire everything a homeowner can do to give us an edge, or buy us some time helps combat the devastation and gives us a chance to turn the corner and save as much as we possibly can.
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Hold on there a minute Skippy. Birken did not mean you are trying to play games, he was referring to the ever present world of specialized marketing and sales in a very specific narrow market, like it or not it is a game . Many of us have seen ideas come and go, for me personally over 3 decades. Some have led to amazing developments in both professional and private fire protection. Others, such as dropping huge water balloons from planes are just amazing to fathom in their naivety.
The fire slime you mention i assume is a gel product. There are many gel and foam products on the market that are very effective for the private homeowner.
You came to a professional wildland fire discussion page full of A personality firefighters and fire service Chief officers who have more than a little knowledge of our profession.
You are correct, we could care less about who will or might sue you, it was a watch out suggestion, because like it or not, this society is full of people who want to blame someone else.
You may be correct that this system will be effective in the Carolinas where fire intensity is much lower and frequency is much lower.
Remember that gravity fed systems are ok for a kitchen faucet, but at .5 psi per foot of height, you will need some serious elevation to make a spray or mister system effective, even after considering volume.
I mentioned in one of my first posts that we need innovators to look at solving issues, please keep working, but don’t get offended when constructive criticism is offered.
With respect
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Yes the heat would be a major issue for any system to withstand. Although that issue could be on the way to being improved. Carbon fiber is being looked at right now. We will see what happens. I did not intend to mean that the system that I designed will even come close to sitting in the middle of one of those wildfires with any chance of survival. The thing that I am trying to do is help the ones I can. Which will be the ones that would not otherwise be effected from the wildfires if it were not for the flying embers of fire. This is another course of defense for those homes. Of course I want to improve the construct all that I can, possibly helping a larger group. I do have a couple of contacts working with me that are out there. One of which is a professor at a college and lives in the danger zone, getting evacuated is something that their family lives with. I will continue to try to find a solution for the water/power issues that will most definitely be a bane to defeat. The slime I’m referring to, is made of water and polyacrylate, a polymer that absorbs 1000 times its weight in water. I found that just over 1000 times its weight works well. It is not toxic, there is a food grade that I have been working with because it was easy for me to get. The only thing that it does is harden the soil after prolonged use. I do not know what kind of things that you guys have tried, but this stuff sticks. Not like glue but it doesn’t immediately run off either. It is something that I have tested a little and it may work great in a large scale. It might be worth y’all looking into. I did not actually know what the red stuff that gets dropped was made of until a couple years ago. I guess that a before measure. This, if you guys approve the trying of it, might help if dropped right on the fire. It may be something that you might want to try. If nothing else, another tool for combating different situations. I have not checked but I am sure that it could be purchased in larger quantities. Seems like I remember a time when someone tried percussion charges to help combat fires. It seems when that wind gets going out there its over in the direction of that wind no matter what. No Sir, I do not take any offense to any criticism, as hard as it is to take. I’m an older dude that has learned that two heads are better than one and four hands… I take it all in and use it to try to improve myself or whatever I am working on. I do not know it all, although I sure thought that I did when I was a young man. The thing about getting sued doesn’t bother me and is something that my attorneys take care of by way of disclaimers. But now that you mention it, I’m remembering that Cali has a reputation for lawsuits. Was not trying to be skippy either. Just thought that it was funny to hear that after I put 50 grand into it from shaving it off of my butt. I will always look for new ways to help in any way that I can. It is my goal to help as much as I can, for as long as I can. I really appreciate you guys educating me on where I landed here and with whom I am corresponding with. I will always praise all of you for your service. And I will always pray for y’all. My name is David Homan by the way, and I am the original poster. Thanks again.
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If you use a polymer for a fire retardant additive you may consider using a bit bigger nozzle size for the misters. Yes cali is sue happy at times, got a neighbor still trying to get someone to pay for his retaining wall that got damaged during tree removal… The entire community burned to the ground including his house.
I was thinking that the polyacrylate could be used to help you guys. Since it holds so much water and has the ability to stick to a burning surface, it could very well offer you guys another tool for fighting non chemical types of fire. Time to make the doughnuts. Hope you all have a great day.
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Has anyone ever heard of using focused radio waves directed at fires to help combat the flames? I am going to see if I can find something like that and try it. I do believe that if it helps it will probably only help in a wildfire situation because the waves may be damaging to animals and personal property. Everyone have a great weekend and thank you for your service and hard work.
You cannot add energy (radio waves) to an already energy-releasing event (fire) and have it affect anything in a good way.
Again, the way wildland fires stop is by the removal of fuel. Hopefully beforehand by proper land management, otherwise in an emergency by bulldozers and crews, and frequently, burning of the fuel between the fire and the line they have created to stop it.
Once a fire has spread to a significant size there are just too many miles of fire to use extinguishing technology on it. Every burning leaf, twig, blade of grass are another fire just waiting to start up again. Everything you see on the landscape where these fires burn is completely flammable and will start a new fire given any chance.
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Hey David, re: your comment about radio waves. Some researchers have demonstrated that acoustic waves can suppress fires (via rapid displacement of oxygen), but to my knowledge these have all been small-scale “laboratory fires”. DoD and FAA have shown interest in further developing technology to quickly suppress incipient stage aircraft/spacecraft fires, but some have proposed using it on vegetation fires
(see here for an article discussing one implementation). I am skeptical for many reasons, but it’s interesting nonetheless.
There are a lot of complexities in wildland fire that do not exist in small scale compartment fires, mainly that the scale of the problem is orders of magnitude greater and oxygen supply is unlimited. As Birken_Vogt mentioned, as the fire grows beyond a very small size, most extinguishment technologies become impractical.
Regarding your specific structure protection idea, I agree with the numerous technical challenges that many have mentioned here. However, I think many appreciate your motivation. If you can figure out how to make simple, affordable, reliable structure protection and convince homeowners to adopt it (along with following Firewise principles), a lot of structure losses could be prevented. This is a hard problem, even when you have a successful product (for example, residential fire sprinkler requirements for new construction homes have saved many lives, but widespread adoption throughout the US is still a distant goal)
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Thank you for the feedback, Tbmaynard. So the problem will always be fuel/oxygen because it is in the air? Brush and such as well, but without oxygen nothing burns. I wonder if we could starve a fire by denying it oxygen long enough to cool it down with water(or whatever) enough to extinguish or suppress the fire? Never the less, I will continue to work on solutions until we find something that bites. My respect for all of you that fight the fire fight continues to grow everyday as my resolve is never ending. David-
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