Planned need rotation list for dozers And Water Tenders

Did the new closest resource hiring concept . Do away with the planned need rotation list? I cannot find it.

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Yes it’s gone. No more list just a guessing game now.

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Planed need is also closest resources with a larger circle of possible resources.

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Ok thanks, any idea how they are doing that.

I was told by my contracting officer that on immediate need the closest resources are called. Closest equipment can get to the fire the fastest. On planned need that circle around the incident is expanded and anyone inside that circle could get called. If tier 1 resources are within that circle and can make the time constraint they will get the calls first.
This was to try a get resources to the fire quicker, fresher and so the State pays less travel time. If this works the way the State hopes travel time would pretty much disappear. I am not certain that the travel time was made public, but it only makes sense. There will be fewer calls for equipment to transverse the state.

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Ok thanks, it will be interesting to see how it works. They just broke a new fire in BEU. It is my understanding that the new rules say you cannot just send a dozer that’s is not being used on one fire to another fire that would not have been their first in.

We are in Tulare county 1.5 hours from the mineral and I was kind of surprised we didn’t get called. So I thought they probably went to planned need and was like. Oh I don’t know how that will work

So everyone understands, closest resource has ALWAYS been the direction from the dept. However, once an incident when into extended attack and the 2nd, 3rd & beyond burn periods, the Tier 1 & Tier 2 lists took priority that hasn’t changed. What has changed is the “Rotating Lists”. With the old system, when resource orders were placed after the planning meeting at 1600 daily, the filling of those orders would start between 1800-2200hr from the Sacramento ECC. So everyone understands it takes approx 20min to call a supplier, fill out the paperwork work, and fill the order. That’s 3 fills an hour. If an incident orders 30 different pieces, that’s 10hr of time it takes to fill orders. That’s for ONE INCIDENT. Now multiple that by multiple incidents and you can see how long it takes. Now add to that “The Games” contractors/suppliers play, “2200hr phone call from Sacramento to a supplier in San Diego for a fire in Redding and the supplier SWEARS they can make 7am briefing”. Not to mention, having to call suppliers in Riverside & San Bernardino along with San Diego because they are ON TOP OF THE LIST. The new system generates a list of ALL SUPPLIERS closest to furthest based on the Lat/Long of the incident. That list shows SUPPLIER TYPE (Tier 1, 2, or 3) distance (based on GPS & air miles) and any specifically ordered equipment(All wheel drive, Type 1 WT, W/Foam for example) So if the incident ordered 10 dozens at 2300hr for a 7am briefing and the the 1st 10 suppliers WERE NOT Tier 1, the Dispatcher will find the closest Tier 1 and see if that supplier can meet the NEED, DATE & TIME. If they can, they are hired. If they cant, the Dispatcher continues down the list till it becomes obvious that the distance the is increasing. That process is then repeated for Tier 2 Supplier until the orders are filled. If the orders aren’t filled, the process is repeated with the Tier 3 list. Keep in mind Dispatchers are taking 911 calls, non-emergency calls, dispatching resources not attached to the incident ordering the dozens, etc. Finally, the states objective is to get the closest resource to the fire the quickest using the Tiering system that can meet NEED, DATE & TIME. With the accidents that have occurred the last 5yr. Fatigue has played a part in all of them, so R&R, relief, & extended ETA is all factor in to changing this system to what is now part of the Supplier Participation Manual.

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Per the F.S. Red book it states you must use agency recourses before going to contract but we all know that doesn’t happen especially in the dozer and water tender world. And those being cal fire incidents it’s even worse, the Sobranes fire was on the LP and had 98 contract dozers and 1 agency for the longest time.

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As Ops on a team before I retired ,we knew the time frames you describe . Our mission was not to let the tail wag the dog. So we tried to order all dozers we. Needed for the next 24 hour shift the night we got to the fire immediate need. It was the only way to beat the system. I am a contractor now. And seeing dozers go by my town to a fire 4 hours north of me used to boil my blood. Not because I didn’t get called as much as I had been the guy on line asking,”where the hell are my dozers. I hope the new system works better

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We have a dozer 2 class A transport drivers and sitting in South Ops. Fingers crossed for that call

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i here ya brother. It will interesting to see how it works

Explanation spot on thank you!

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I remember a time before all this immediate need/planned need stuff when the local State Forest Ranger 1 (now Battalion Chief) would put together a list each spring of all the private bulldozers and water trucks in his district (now battalion) that wanted to go to fires that summer. He’d give that list to the Dispatch office and when he had a fire he’d usually request by name of the resource he wanted. It sounds like favoritism could creep in, but the Ranger had to live in the same community with these folks and that kind of kept them honest. More importantly, when the weather was dangerous, he’d call around and find who was loaded up and available and where they were. If the fire got big, the dispatcher would just go to the next Ranger Districts list, It was remarkably efficient.

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Yes I remember that as well. It seems to me about the time folks started moving to the mountains to get out of the city was when it all started changing. Where I first saw the massive hiring of equipment was on the Marble Cone, and the large FIRE’s in Northern California. After those fires lots of guys were bragging how much money they made and didn’t burn any fuel. That started the influx of folks wanting in on the action and a fair way to spread the wealth followed shortly after. Of course at the same time Cal Fire and USFS realizes they needed to get a better handle on managing that equipment.

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Food for thought. Since there is no list some kind of mass text from cal fire would be great. Something like.
Calfire is filling orders for dozens and water tenders you may or may not get a call or assignment friendly reminder so you can prepair if a call comes your way. Now the way it is we have no idea to prepair crews and get machines from job sites etc

There are over 1,700 suppliers that have signed up through the 294 program. The state has not in the past or recently had a problem filling orders for various types of Hired Equipment. Even with Covid-19, there has not been a shortage of support equipment for base camp. Somewhere there seems to be a disconnect that the state is “The Customer” and not the other way around. With all of fhe the technology in 2020, there is not a shortage of intelligence sources for people to find the status of fires. From this site, to FB, Twitter, Broadcasting there is no shortage of “real time” fire intelligence/status. Finally, with Covid-19, fire season, pay, & staffing issues. It is NOT the states responsibility to notify the suppliers when orders are filled. On the contrary, it is the suppliers responsibility to remember who the customer is and in this case, the customer is ultimately the tax paying citizens that are paying to have the fire extinguished in the most cost efficient, quickest and safest way possible.

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Damn Ehoss, got a burr under your saddle.
Jim H.
Lmao

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More than just a burr! Haha

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While I agree with Ehoss, I would like to mention that there was a time when they exhausted the statewide list. 2018/19 season I believe. They actually started calling the units to see if they had equipment that was available that was not on the tier 1,23 list

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