I’ve known Ehoss for a long time! He knows it’s all in good fun!
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I remember in 2014 or 15 they had gone through the state list 3 or 4 times looking for more equipment.
Ehoss and Smoke both know the all of the Ins and Outs of the system
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I’d say so. Yellow McCloud contractor sitting cause of no ration
I understand the concern from the contract side. And the fact that you’ve done it all, contract, FS, and CalFire… how do you feel that most agencies regulations call to use agency before contract? And with the weird season because of covid we have outa state orders getting canceled because they come from a “quote un quote” RED ZONE!
I’m not sure about the out of state requests. I do know there are hotshot crews still going out of state. As far as agency resources before contracted resources…the biggest reason is because they can usually get there quicker, they are more consistent with the continuing training and the agency resources know what the agency wants. Not saying contractors don’t know or aren’t good, it’s just not as consistent. Even with the different agencies, they will use each other’s resources first because once again, usually quicker and also with a lot of the mutual aid agreements the first 24 hours are free. At least in my previous experience, not all mutual aid agreements are written the same.
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I agree, yet it is written in the SOPs to use agency before contract. And yes hot shots are still going outa state. And I’m terms of covid and cross pollination who is worse? A 20 person crew in 10 rooms 2 trucks, or a 3-4 person dozer in 3-4 rooms in 2-3 trucks?
There are a couple of things which were common in years prior to this one, is that you would see agency dozers paired with CWN in a ST configuration. There are a couple of advantages doing that: 1.) The agency dozers can be spread across multiple incidents better while maintaining control factors; 2.) There is a consistent ability to ensure that CWN contract holders are maintaining their equipment and are providing proficient trained operators. The second thing is that CWN dozers would backfill into CF stations and would be IA dispatched. Generally, these were either former HFEO’s or Tier 1 contractors with a strong record with the Unit. They would be dispatched using their E number identifier.
This year is going to be different most likely, although, nothing is a solid any longer, with the retirement of the rotation list and most certainly COVID. Through nobody’s fault, COVID has introduced some very problematic issues. Only time will tell if the utilization of these work throughs and arounds will be able to be used this year with these two very complex issues. As with anything, assume nothing, learn as much as you can about how your local unit is operating and above all, have a lot of patience and perseverance. I don’t believe anyone is deliberately trying to put anyone’s livelihood at risk or trying to isolate CWN resources away from the action. These new rules are a learning curve for everyone and COVID didn’t help in any way either.
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The 3 was a typo my bad, I know you know your stuff, I was making little joke because you were on a roll there. So it is rare but Sac has actually gone through the list several times trying to fill more orders than they had answers to their calls.
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LOL thanks, yes I was actually a train the trainer instructor for the Dozer Manager position that was created after the fiasco with dozers in 1970. Before ICS. Naturally when we switched to ICS I was on the cadre for The Dozer strike team leader class then. Hired equipment Tech spec on team before promoting to BC then Ops on a team. I have been impressed with the great people I met in the contract dozer world. 98% of them are anxious to do a good job and willing to take any assignment I gave them. I think like any thing else the entire group suffers from the action of few bad apples, and for that reason the stigma has been hard to erase.
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Like any organization 80/20 or more like 90/10 these days.
90% of the work is done by 10% of the people
The inverted is true as well
10% can ruin it for the other 90%.
I was fortunate to have been taught/worked for some of the original members of the DOGS group over the years. Very well-versed in the “Red Dozer/Blue Dozer” program that BDU/RRU/MVU use to follow as described by an "Old SFR-1"
. I was asked in 95’ by a HEC if I could make 1 change to the program. My answer was MORE TRAINING. IMHO There is no reason not to require S131, S190, L180 as baseline courses for CWN resources. A 5yr plan to implement would be needed. But it would make the 8hr safety course a true REFRESHER. Requiring more from the Drivers/Operators would go a long way to seperate the contenders from the pretenders.
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I hope you are not considering grey book counties as contractors… i personally had 3 dozers that were white with a blue stripe on my division.
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No, those over-paid, premadonna’s have the best of equipment and cherry pick the best operator’s from other agencies. The agencies they work for “tend” to spec tractors that have equal horsepower & weight, never sacrificing one for the other
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I would concur that those would be the minimal training standards that need to be in place. I would also say that I would like to see some level of operator proficiency standards in place. Just because an individual has a lot of stick time in slot dozing or grade work does not necessarily mean that they are ready for wildland fire line work. It is a very different animal and a person can get into trouble very easily without significant tutelage and training. I really wish there was a way to have a training center for operators similar to the HFEO Academy but that is a long way off. Unfortunately, the age of the true timber cat skinners is long past because those guys were very proficient operators. Crusty bunch but really good.
There also needs to be some responsibility within the CWN Contract holders as well. Personally, I don’t think that an 80 year old, as an example, had any business being utilized on the Carr Fire and certainly not in the instance in which he was tragically overrun.
It is quite possible that some of these elements are being discussed and assessed in Sacramento but if they’re not, they should be.
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We are like a bunch of caged animals…ready to do battle with the devil!! Give it a few weeks and our idle hands will be working, doing what we do best…punching line and eating dirt. Stay frosty gentlemen!!
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The proficiently would/is next to impossible to accomplish due to CEQA and other environmental issues. At best, an obstacle course could/would be built. But that isn’t the same as actually “pushing line” and removing vegetation. As an example, the HFEO academy at Ione requires about 100 acres per student to properly teach. The next closest thing would be the Camp Pendleton or Camp Robert’s fuel breaks that get cleared off each year. But those are only grass and “stay within existing footprints”. Not to mention, the liability of “CWN” on lands(public & private). I tried it back in 2010 and was shut down. The best experience I can advise is for operator’s get with small “Mom & Pop Owner Operator’s” to gain experience pioneering in roads & pads for houses, groves, etc. But I can tell you industry
(Cat, JD, ETC) have seen this problem coming(lack of experienced operator’s) for decades. Hence the reason for “Accgrade, Trimble, etc” and other types of GPS control on machines. Having been on large dirt moving projects, the lack of “skills” is an industry(construction, mining) problem in society (Think Mike Rowe Dirty Jobs) and not just in fire.
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Agree with the concept Ehoss. I always thought we should be able to make a contract with cattle ranches in the chaparral fuels to creates fire breaks on their land. We did that to a certain extent in VMP projects. The land owners/stakeholders are all for it as long as they are protected from liability. The problem I had was getting the brass to authorize the manpower. HFEOs we’re turning wrenches. They are our instructors.
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Ehoss,
Im a 9 year firefighter in California and I’m looking to get some information on water tenders and starting my own small business. Posted a topic in general discussion but from reading your posts, I feel like you’re a wealth of knowledge.
If you’d be willing to help me out I’d greatly appreciate it! Please let me know if I can pick your brain about this.
Thank you!
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For Calfire
WWW.fire.ca.gov
Click on the Resource Tab
Then click the Hired Equipment Tab
Everything you need is there.
Download and read the Jan 2022 Supplier Participation Manual
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