Regarding what is and is not allowed in the Q&D threads

California & Hawaii Hotlist Questions and Discussion
#1

I don’t really have a dog in this fight (discussion?) but I think the recent posts regarding what is and isn’t allowed in the Q & D section is a valid topic for an exchange of views. It shows there is an interest in talking about this. I figured I’d just create this thread to allow the mods to move the conversation (posts) off the Lava incident.

Sorta sidebar, but it was kinda jarring…as I was reading a recent post about this on the Lava thread, it apparently was deleted as it disappeared from my screen. Spooky.

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#2

I missed this before it disappeared so would be interested in what was said to start this discussion.

Generally I believe the mods on this site do an excellent job in keeping the discussion on point.

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#3

With one of the mod’s explanations of everyone being swamped and busy with fires; with that perspective then I felt the moderation was in line with a quick-and-dirty “is this fire-related or not? Not? ByeBye”

However, five more seconds of reading and context would have shown some of those posts were indeed on topic with the fire at hand, not blaming anyone or agency, not inflammatory, and truly inquisitive and curious in nature, and could have been saved from a quick trigger finger. Albeit, we were looking at a potential mass community burnout with this fire so again, I see the mod’s reasoning. But I think from the other side, it just never seems to be a good time to bring up the conversation. Every time it’s brought up, it isn’t the right time, or not now, or off topic, or wrong thread etc.

And I say “it” as a royal it. Any and all topics that skirt the edge of politics and armchair quarterbacking etc. As was said earlier (and then cut), we have to have an opportunity and place somewhere, where we can have adult conversation with fellow professionals, on what possibly went wrong, or could be improved upon, or be educated from those that ARE in the know. And no, zuckerburg’s domain is not the place for that. We’ll never improve otherwise.

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#4

Most likely what happened was someone attacking an agency by stating what they believe happens when that particular agency has control of a fire.

Seems to me that sometimes fireman who have only worked for one outfit and also just happen to think that their team does everything correctly and the other agencies do everything wrong and also strangely make fires grow on purpose.

I can tell you from my own experiences working as a hotshot for 10 years 2 1/2 years on fed engines and now on my third year with CAL FIRE that there are solid fireman on both sides and sadly there are terrible employees everywhere you go in life whether or not you’re in fire or something else.

Sometimes these employees make it difficult to get a job done correctly especially on a small scale. Also they are difficult to get rid of or terminate. I left the forest service because it was very hard to live in California and have a family with those wages not because they don’t know how to fight fire.

More importantly across both agencies when an engine shows up or a shot crew to an incident you can expect the same quality as the one you worked with on the last fire but in reality it will differ each time sometimes to a large enough degree that you may not catch a fire within the first operational shift.

This is because module LEADERSHIP I believe has the largest impact on fireman, not agency branding.
Now each agency can create a cultural environment that can help mold employees but the buck always will land on the module leaders at the end of the day.

You’d be hard pressed to find a group of fireman that work harder on average than Hotshots but that doesn’t mean their aren’t lazy ones that don’t belong. The same way you’ll find how dynamic some cal fire engine companies can be and the vast difference in call types they run. Again though you’ll find lazy ones that just occupy space.

In my opinion instead of trying to demonize an entire organization we need to focus more on growing better leaders who are not afraid to seek out responsibility when something goes wrong and that doesn’t jump at the opportunity to point the finger of blame.

Sadly this should start being instilled in our children who are getting much more difficult to turn into thick skinned module leaders because they’ve been pampered too much and think they shouldn’t be offended growing up. Anyway that’s my take on it.

People shouldn’t use this forum like social media when talking about an active incident this platform is for learning teaching and communicating important information.

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#5

I am the SOB who apparently “arm chaired”, “Monday Morning Quarterbacked” the command team with no information by asking:

The Immediate Need ST’s beyond SHU would likely be late to the Game with the run that was occurring. With the Red Flag conditions predicted days prior, the fire had lots of open line that would be active when the wind came up, after this is over someone needs to look at why there was not a staffed contingency in place?

Not in the post: Maybe the command team had requested and it was delayed or shot down above, I don’t know. But the facts as they developed beg the question and answers should be sought out.

That was taken down unknown to me prior to getting multiple messages from members who noticed.

So I posted “Why was my post taken down and not notified?”

The Moderator reply aimed at me was insulting and vicious, exactly the kind of attack that should be removed. The claim of “we are all busy” is ridicules! This forum serves a critical function and validity is critical, so unless obvious and some posts are obviously in-proper, let things stay up until certain it should come down. On many other running fires I have seen totally unrelated topics remain or be moved to the Q&D, so the “stay with the fire” is not true for Q&D. Based on member feedback, I was not the only one wondering about this issue.

I was an early member of the original forum, when they started the Q&D thread for exactly these topics. Direct fire related information was to go in the IA or Continuing Fire thread. If you were busy or on duty, the IA & Continuing fire provided the important information. It is no fun when questions are asked but we must do just that to improve.

I posted my response to the Moderators post clearly directed at me and that came down but they did notify me, but the Moderators post remains on the thread as I wright this.

My heart ache with this is not that accusatory or derogatory posts should be taken down ASAP, or even the insults directed at me (I have had much worse and most of us have a pretty thick skin after 30+ years in the business) but that honest questions that may be uncomfortable asked without accusations are now off limits. Failing to learn from our mistakes or less than optimal decisions guaranties they will be repeated. The first step is to be honest with ourselves and look to see if we did make a mistake or should have done something different.

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#6

I asked the same question @northbayfcret and it’s a question that needs to be answered. My short career working for two different agencies I have seen the benefit of different tactics but whenever possible life and property is affected we need to do what’s best for the citizens we have sworn to protect.

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#7

I agree with all you said, however you made one assumption that is not the case at all! I did not demonize or mention an agency. We are all individuals, not defined by our agencies, all agencies have mostly good folks but a few sub-par, some systems that work well and some that don’t. The bigger the agency the more policy is made away from the field. CDF or CalFire as it is now called (yes I am an old guy) has done a remarkable job of pushing decisions down to the field for incidents, even the big ones, but this doesn’t always work perfectly. The Federal agencies are so pressured by politics, size of the bureaucracy, horrible pay and compensation I am amazed how the troops in the field function so well.

In this case my issue was a fire entering its 3 or 4th op period, predicted red flag, dry winds and lots of open line, the run that occurred was all but certain. So where was the staffed contingency in an area where it takes hours to get resources deployed in mass? The posts and other information I had made it pretty clear that the run a Hwy 97 and threatening development in the SRA was a surprise. I simply said after this was a done deal this issue needs to be looked into. Why this was the case I have no idea, was ti the command team, Region, GAC, micro managing from another source who knows but to prevent a similar situation the questions needs to be asked.

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#8

Keeping asking questions, it will keep you and the people your work with safe and make you a more effective firefighter!

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#9

I just got a not from a MOD telling me that he thought he was on the IA thread and note the Q&D when the post was deleted.
I appreciate him taking time to let me know!

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#10

An observation further defending this, your posts did not attack the actual fire fight or agencies involved fighting the good fight trying to put this beast to sleep.

You’re simply calling out the elephant in the room of what, if anything, broke down in the ordering process where historically, and more recently, when large threats to life and property are so obviously inevitable 12-24-36hrs out that resources have moved to mitigate that threat. No movement this time, despite the inevitable, and despite knowing the logistical response hurdle of sending “immediate need” strike teams to SKU…from 5 units away.

Just this week, looking at BTU div ordering up loads and loads of resources up to LNF-Sky, just in case, 2nd op period. LNF had it nipped in the bud fast.

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#11

If we are all being honest here, I am feeling more and more like the FS and NPS operations staff lack the aggressive strategies and tactics to effectively fight fire in California today. That has nothing to do with the line personnel that I have seen work hard fire after fire. We are all seeing the same thing and can name fire after fire in the last decade where poor decisions and lack of aggressiveness have caused countless loss of life and devastation to our communities. There’s a time and a place for forestry management tactics, but not when the public’s lives and livelihoods are threatened.

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#12

My post about it being called contained on the 24th and escaping was the first post removed, it was enter on CAD that is was contained. No reason was given as to why it was removed. I was going to ask why tankers weren’t ordered sooner but decided to shelve it.

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#13

I don’t think that should of been removed… it is facts from the government website… I thought this website was to get the information out there. Whether it be good bad or indifferent?

With that being deleted are we going to delete lat and longs pulled off that website as well? Or just the information we as individuals don’t agree with?

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#14

Mine were removed because I guess I was too critical of the fact that in my 4 hour drive on I-5 to the area of the fire I did not pass one single piece of firefighting equipment, there were two copters in the air and I listened to AA state that “retardant” would not work in the fuel type.
I watched the fire when it was less than two acres of ground fuel and reported to be 80% contained, and then watched it get up and run…
All of this with a RFW looming.
I know that resources were released that were there and not utilized…
As far as being too critical or “armchair” , it is just simply calling out the facts. The facts speak for themselves, over and over each year in California. It is accepted in other states, but we cannot do business like this anymore here, not with our population and values at risk.
If I hurt some feelings… well it will not be the first time. If the “mods” want to talk to me, they can figure out who I am and most likely already know. I can take them on a field trips and maybe they can the understand my frustration…

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#15

I bet the residents of Berry Creek would like some of these exact questions answered.

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#16

Let’s stop beating the dead horse. This issue has taken up to much time for really nothing. Mods laid out his reasoning and suggested this topic be discussed at a later time, and certainly not when fires are starting to go major. Being a Mods is a very time consuming process and a lot of the Mods are responding FF’s either in the station or headed to a line assignment. It’s not easy and you can never make everyone happy. I would hope, unlike social media trollers, that we can all be professional and mindful that we are all in the same profession and we need to respect each other. Having worked in an ECC for a total of almost 10 years, as a dispatcher and a Fire Captain and 22 yrs. total after an injury retirement, there are decisions made for many reasons and sometimes from the outside looking in it seems non-comprehensible to understand the whys and how comes many decisions are made. Let’s give the benefit of the doubt and have this conversation about tactics, strategies and planning later on this incident, and maybe others. That actually should be the thread name. Thanks.

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#17

I’ll be glad to join you on field trips and help be a tour guide showing where improvements are necessary.

With the evolution of fire season in CA we need to be much more aggressive about attacking fires. I have personally witnessed loss of life on a large scale too many times to sit back and accept anything less than max effort.

Major incidents should be run and commanded by agencies and personnel that are able to do so in a timely fashion without fail.

Before someone says decisions are made for reasons or lag time or anything else, I’d like it to be considered that wild land fire service in this state has lost a ton of respect in the past 5 years. Poor management and delayed action of incidents is the culprit.

The way things were handled 10 years ago no longer apply to today’s dynamics. I’m not going to get into the reasoning behind increasing fire activity yearly or any other political conversion. But I will say I was there that day in Berry Creek in Butte. By the way, that was a single lightning strike tree in Quincy two weeks before.

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#18

I did not actually read your post so I wasn’t speaking to that but in the same thread I had flagged a post that directly accused the forest service for getting his troops “burned over” because they had a fire that got out of hand that they just “weren’t putting out” so that’s more of what my post was aimed at and I’ve seen those posts before so just thought I’d speak to that.

#19

Not sure there is room for the “benefit of doubt” when the stakes are so high. I watched the Lava Fire make a tear through a community last night and listened to dozens of propane tanks exploding. Each one associated with something someone owned. The fire is now pushing up and around Mt. Shasta. It will has made it over Deer Mountain and is pushing towards the Whaleback.
I am hoping the evacuation was complete, and everyone got out. Beyond that, this next weekend is the 4th of July. This area is a tourist mecca and coming off two bad years with Covid, many of the resorts and hotels and businesses rely on a short season to make money, with the 4th of July being the biggest. Now the fire will most likely burn for several weeks if not longer…

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#20

From an article in the SF Chronicle just released

NEW: Official in charge of #LavaFire apologizes to evacuated residents, says crews initially thought they extinguished 1/4-acre fire on Friday. Firefighters left the scene, only to see fire restart an hour later. Now over 13K acres, 8K residents evacuated.

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