States share resources as wildfires rage across US West (msn.com)
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We have been trying since the start of the Bootleg to send out our type 3. Unfortunately, in our region we have only 2 depts that are available to send out a type 3. The rest have such horrible staffing issues their men and women are working 96/48 schedules right now just to support their own City.
On top of that the fire service is very very young. Most of our captains have children under 4 years old. That being said, none of them want to become STENs because they would rather be local and close to home to support their families or pregnant wives and choose to just work the station OT to back fill.
Along with being a very young fire service (I think our median age is 30) most of our firefighters don’t have that CALFIRE experience that so many of us got when we wanted to become firefighters. It’s how a lot of us fell in love with wildland fires and camping and sleeping in the dirt. Calfire isn’t attractive anymore to rookies trying to get their feet wet since they can get a $100k a year LG job with little to no experience. I’ve had MANY of our young firefighters openly say “I have zero interest to go out of county.” Those same firefighters refuse to get their s290, type 3 task books started, anything to do with wildland because they want to avoid it all together. 24 hour shifts, 15k ft hose lays, hiking, and no AC or regular meals are some things I have heard… total change from the oral board am I right?
Along with that, I have seen a rapid decline of 20 something year olds coming to ask questions about being a firefighter. When those Gen Z kids see that a girl on FansOnly can sell pictures of herself and make $20k a month (low end) or they see a guy who plays video games on YouTube all day make $20k a month in sponsors why would a job where you never sleep right ever again and extremely labor intensive and requires a lot of education, why would that be appealing?
Back to our young Captains, many feel they lack the time and experience to become a STEN or safety or any type of over head position because they want to be in their position for a few years before going out of county or taking those classes.
Just got off shift but hopefully that rant makes sense. Another cup of coffee for me 
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This sounds all too familiar.
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Nice to see some people get the big picture. I was in K12 edtech for 18 years and near the last few years the district I was in was trying to get more vocational “real life application” into the classroom at a younger age, 7-8th grade even. We could see the paradigm shift and complementing desires from both society (local welding shop ready to pay huge $$ out-of-school with 10 openings and nobody skilled to hire), and the kids (answering the age-long how is “this” relevant?) We were the only district in 4-5 counties up here even thinking about this. That’s not to brag, that’s to explain how rare this idea was/is still. College isn’t for everyone. Education is in an odd in-between of the 80-90-00’s of pushing everyone toward college, and not sure how to fill (or they do but they aren’t tooled up) the societal need of vocational skills. Mike Rowe is huge proponent of this.
Combine that with the current economic reality. Kids aren’t stupid. We plaster a generational name to them and sneer at them when they graduate with underwater basket weaving degree “because college,” saddled with a massive debt that is more than their parent’s home mortgage, and enter a job market with stagnant wages and health insurance that overrides doctor’s decisions, which is tied to employment instead of being stand-alone. Kids aren’t blind when they see I could pay for my college tuition with my part time minimum wage $5.75 job in late 90’s and still pay rent for a little bachelor pad….wages are severely out of whack with today’s prices.
Kids look at some of these agencies who pay pennies, risk life and limb and beat the heck out of their young bodies with a for-profit health insurance system that they’d need to heavily count on in order to even survive retirement, if they make it that far or can afford it with the constant gutting of government funding. What security is there in that? There’s public service, and then there’s just plain being taken advantage of.
In short, kids need better tools, and wages/health care/security need to catch up and be there when they step into the job market. They’re vastly out of sync.
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I’m not sure I agree with the notion that all is bad, salaries, hours, benefits, long assignments, blah blah.
I for one retired from CALFIRE after a very long, outstanding rewarding career that was hard, sweaty, stressful, took time away from my family and did not allow me to go the lake and drink beer every weekend.
BUT, I have an outstanding retirement, and proud career to look back on and a son with a college degree that my wife and I paid 100% for.
It is all about what you are willing to do and the work ethic that comes with it. I am tired of hearing “I will stay here in the recliner making overtime and make big bucks while you stupid guys and girls go hump hose and cut line.”
That is a work ethic to be proud of for sure folks.
There are some things that need adjusting sure. It is a dangerous job, it will take a toll on your health and family life but I would never change a damn thing about my career. Proudest years of my life short of the birth of my kids.
One last thought , we keep talking about the fire service and the problems with the workforce. What about our proud military folks, they get shot at and make less than any of us. I do not know a single proud veteran that would buy some of the excuses we are hearing. If this is the case then we are truly in trouble as a country when it comes time to suck it up and defend her.
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Bro, glad you got out and that you had a great career. That being said, Please come tell my personnel that are literally working 14 on 2 off and back to 14 on in the station that same thing and see how they respond. Please come tell them that they shouldn’t be tired working in stations where single engine companies run over 5k calls a year and see if that helps them be ready to jump on the rig for another 15 hits. Maybe you can convince their wives not to leave them since they are tired of being single mothers for all intents and purposes. Maybe you can watch their kids grow up since they don’t get to.
I understand what you’re trying to say here but it simply does not match the reality on the ground for those of us that currently work on the floor.
What I want for my guys is to look back on their career the same way you look back on yours. But if we continue with the “200 years of tradition unimpeded by progress” mentality we will be lucky if we even staff the rigs in the future.
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Understood
I retired just recently, and did everything you say is happening, every year. Nothing has really changed in the grand scheme of things.
14 and off 2 is something I would have loved, try 21 and 2. It’s part of the job, 8 or 10 days a month is NOT what they signed up for I’m sorry.
I would live to sit with them and have a coffee and talk about sacrifice in the face of a public service job.
So instead of crying about what is wrong with our profession ( and I mean in general, not at you), please present some reasonable, effective, cost effective, options for what we are facing. And when you say pay us more, how much? What is the limit, because I can say my bloody taxes in CA are way out of control as it is.
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No offense taken. I’m not the sensitive type. I have offered a number of solutions beyond simply just throwing money at the problem. I have a post above that includes recruiting, changing the sheer amount of call types we respond to, and a few other items.
I also think that there are some potential differences in what we are talking about due to the fact that our agency is so varied in mission and work location.
May I ask what solutions you would suggest? Because the hiring pool we have and the work pool we have are what they are. And I’m truly asking because something has to give. Lastly I would point out that I’m not a Jr member of the dept either and nearly all of my peers (again small circle due to the size of CF) all feel the same I do about what’s happening to our people.
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THIS IS THE DISCUSSION WE HAVE NEEDED TO HAVE!!!
Some potential solutions
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Stop endorsing politicians who promise to pay/provide more for Public Safety, SEIU, CDCREA, CHP, ETC. We need to starting thinking about the collective good and not the personal gain. I hate the rotational schedule. But if it will make working conditions better, then I’ll suck it up and vote for it for the collective good.
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We have to reallocate they way vacation is issued. Currently, the senior person gets to “burn what they earn” and when it comes to the end of the seniority list, those employees are lucky to get the MOU 2 weeks. Have talked with other units and agency’s and it’s similar problems. Yes, you’ve worked 20yr, yes you’ve earned it. But how fair is it for you to take 100+ days while your coworker is lucky to get 11 days let alone 22 days. How about we bid by seniority in 2 week blocks so everyone gets 4 weeks
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The High School / College Education Scam. Or better put, “is the juice worth the squeeze” Mike Rowe is 100% spot on with his assessment. What’s the solution, we need to start recruiting younger. Freshman yr in high-school for starters. But when College educated guidance counselors present only 1 side with statements like "You won’t amount to anything without a college education " that is criminal IMHO. I for one was preached that back in the late 80’s. Back then there was still some trade shops in school and the military recruiters were allowed to participate in job fairs. My oldest graduated in 2017 and was only offered “College Fairs” and “College only”. This high school bragged about being INTERNATIONAL BACCALAUREATE and how many kids when to IVY LEAGUE schools. I personally know several kids that were drop outs sadly because they couldn’t keep up. While we have helped our oldest with college. They will still graduate with $75k of student debt. That in my opinion is criminal. That means we need to get involved at the local level, at the school board meetings and demand change.
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WE need to stop coddeling our kids. Think about it another way. When babies are born, they 1st learn to roll over, then they learn to push themselves up. Then they learn to pull themselves up before beginning to take those 1st steps. They fall over, they cry. Sometimes they get hurt. But eventually they learn to walk. Then they learn to run. What are we doing by being Helicopter parents? What have WE DONE BY putting feelings before facts? What has been learned by “Everyone gets a trophy”? Bicycle helmets, knee pads, training wheels, etc. I’m not saying swim lessons should be tossing them into the deep end and telling to make it to the side(That’s how I was taugh). But we have to have a middle ground.
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We need to encourage those who work for us in a positive way, while still pushing them. Allow them to make mistakes in training. As a Division Chief said to me “They are the WHY generation” they want to know WHY they are doing something. Explaining to them why it is important to do something as simple as “Making your bed” as General McChrystal says starts the building of fundamental building blocks.
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We have to stop belittling them the way some of us were trained. Gone are the days of PT as punishment or Do as I say, not as I do. This younger generation is bombarded with inputs that as a pastor once put, “a reservoir a mile wide and 1” deep" I have personally found that putting myself in their shoes and doing “The dirty work” along side gets more buy in.
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We have to be honest with them, our families, but most importantly OURSELVES. I know because of the Dixie Fire I’m working Vacation to Vacation. In my case 32 days. It’s the nature of the beast. We have to be honest with our People as well. Remember those Hired in the last 8yr already have less retirement benefits and have to work longer then we do. As an instructor once told me “Having a Porsche with a license plate that says overtime. Then crying the blues when our pay gets cut doesn’t engender sympathy” We also have to own our mistakes. I know I was too easy my kids when they needed a boot in the butt; but I also know the society we live in and hear it from my kids friends. “You sure work a lot” Yup, but it’s not work, it’s a passion, it’s a calling and I wouldn’t trade it for anything in the world.
IMHO, this is still the best job in the world. I could be a millionaire and I would find a way to be a volunteer and give back.
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Well put
Generations change. The iron worker of the 50s is gone and this generation would run away screaming if they had to do that. Good hard honest vocational work with meaning.
Coddling is a well put point
Part of the hiring problem and not just with fire but across the board is covid welfare. I’m not saying it wasn’t hard before but now it is just downright silly. To stay at home watch you tube and make 44000 a year on handouts is criminal and just plain lazy and a fast track to socialism.
Union bargaining is also partly to blame as you stated
Giving unlimited time off does not solve any problem, it just makes it worse for 2/3 of any staffing model.
Once upon a time we would offer to cover holidays as single ffs so the married ones could spend the holiday with family. I did that countless times. Try to do that now and you are answered with a great big I got mine, too bad.
I would be interested to hear what other agencies like FDNY and larger midwest and east coast agencies are experiencing.
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And I will say one more thing.
I have always approached my career as a parallel to the military. Get called up, deployed and do your damndest to get home with a mission accomplished. We are currently in a high op tempo war. Let’s just pause and reflect on our military brothers and sisters protecting us while we protect the tax paying public.
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BRAVO, Well said
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Most of the things that people are complaining about regarding working conditions, living conditions, and pay have been the same for decades. This isn’t a generational thing. The “kids these days” stuff is unhelpful and destroys solidarity. Do we want things to get better or remain bad in exactly the same ways for generations because everyone is required to suffer in the same ways because that’s the way it is?
Let’s say every generation has higher and higher expectations for working conditions and work/life balance. I don’t believe that for a second but let’s say it’s true. Is the solution to go on a quixotic odyssey to makes kids want less and desire suffering because it is somehow virtuous to be miserable, poorly paid, and have a strained family life?
Why even talk about this topic if this is the direction folks take it in?
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BRAVO, Well said
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I personally made a great living and my family never went without anything.
I agree the USFS needs a raise.
However throwing more money at it will change absolutely nothing.
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Increasing wages to match cost of living will absolutely help in many places, but it is not a panacea. Outside of urban centers, CA federal firefighters are on the same pay scale as those in Miles City, MT.
Things like assignment length, imo, need to really be looked into as well. IF the problem is as persistent, widespread, and deep as I think we all believe it is, why wouldn’t everything be on the table? Especially since fires are clearly much more challenging than they have been for about 100 years in many places in the West. The model that worked in the 20th century was built for an all-male workforce with a very defined and substantially shorter fire season. That’s clearly not the case anymore.
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Females have been excellent firefighters for many many years, what does that have to do with the discussion?
IF we are only talking about federal agencies then you are correct. But i still maintain paying more for all ik there will make no difference. CALFIRE pays a very competitive wage.
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im with you on that!
very content with my USFS career and would do it again!
ps…on the line you would get a raise in elevation daily!
Man, the thing about these threads is it always devolves into a b**chfest about how " things were better in the past", “worlds going to h*ll”, “youngin’s don’t respect” blah blah, “I’ll repeat the tired old trope I saw on my social feed” yadda yadda yadda. Some of the posts stay on target but to read some of the post…sigh. I heard most of these “reasons” for the same or different problems 30 years ago when I first entered the job. I suggest rereading cdfff and erapland post above and working from that viewpoint and the fire service would be able to start to address the issues.
Lastly, IMHO starting your fire fighters at minimum wage is not what I consider competitive pay. Making them work 2.5 times the amount a 40 hour worker does to make equivalent wages is not what I consider completive wages.
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I have a lot more to say, but most of it has been covered by previous posts. My observations of the current work force is that they (not all) lack a passion for the profession. Its just a job. The personal sacrifice for the betterment of the organization or the mission is lacking. The one thing that is certain, things will change, whether we think it is good or bad. The values of the current work force are very different from the work force of 40 years ago. Reality wins every time, I hope the current generation is prepared to deal if this new reality.
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