Staffing Shortages

General Discussion
#41

THIS IS THE DISCUSSION WE HAVE NEEDED TO HAVE!!!

Some potential solutions

  1. Stop endorsing politicians who promise to pay/provide more for Public Safety, SEIU, CDCREA, CHP, ETC. We need to starting thinking about the collective good and not the personal gain. I hate the rotational schedule. But if it will make working conditions better, then I’ll suck it up and vote for it for the collective good.

  2. We have to reallocate they way vacation is issued. Currently, the senior person gets to “burn what they earn” and when it comes to the end of the seniority list, those employees are lucky to get the MOU 2 weeks. Have talked with other units and agency’s and it’s similar problems. Yes, you’ve worked 20yr, yes you’ve earned it. But how fair is it for you to take 100+ days while your coworker is lucky to get 11 days let alone 22 days. How about we bid by seniority in 2 week blocks so everyone gets 4 weeks

  3. The High School / College Education Scam. Or better put, “is the juice worth the squeeze” Mike Rowe is 100% spot on with his assessment. What’s the solution, we need to start recruiting younger. Freshman yr in high-school for starters. But when College educated guidance counselors present only 1 side with statements like "You won’t amount to anything without a college education " that is criminal IMHO. I for one was preached that back in the late 80’s. Back then there was still some trade shops in school and the military recruiters were allowed to participate in job fairs. My oldest graduated in 2017 and was only offered “College Fairs” and “College only”. This high school bragged about being INTERNATIONAL BACCALAUREATE and how many kids when to IVY LEAGUE schools. I personally know several kids that were drop outs sadly because they couldn’t keep up. While we have helped our oldest with college. They will still graduate with $75k of student debt. That in my opinion is criminal. That means we need to get involved at the local level, at the school board meetings and demand change.

  4. WE need to stop coddeling our kids. Think about it another way. When babies are born, they 1st learn to roll over, then they learn to push themselves up. Then they learn to pull themselves up before beginning to take those 1st steps. They fall over, they cry. Sometimes they get hurt. But eventually they learn to walk. Then they learn to run. What are we doing by being Helicopter parents? What have WE DONE BY putting feelings before facts? What has been learned by “Everyone gets a trophy”? Bicycle helmets, knee pads, training wheels, etc. I’m not saying swim lessons should be tossing them into the deep end and telling to make it to the side(That’s how I was taugh). But we have to have a middle ground.

  5. We need to encourage those who work for us in a positive way, while still pushing them. Allow them to make mistakes in training. As a Division Chief said to me “They are the WHY generation” they want to know WHY they are doing something. Explaining to them why it is important to do something as simple as “Making your bed” as General McChrystal says starts the building of fundamental building blocks.

  6. We have to stop belittling them the way some of us were trained. Gone are the days of PT as punishment or Do as I say, not as I do. This younger generation is bombarded with inputs that as a pastor once put, “a reservoir a mile wide and 1” deep" I have personally found that putting myself in their shoes and doing “The dirty work” along side gets more buy in.

  7. We have to be honest with them, our families, but most importantly OURSELVES. I know because of the Dixie Fire I’m working Vacation to Vacation. In my case 32 days. It’s the nature of the beast. We have to be honest with our People as well. Remember those Hired in the last 8yr already have less retirement benefits and have to work longer then we do. As an instructor once told me “Having a Porsche with a license plate that says overtime. Then crying the blues when our pay gets cut doesn’t engender sympathy” We also have to own our mistakes. I know I was too easy my kids when they needed a boot in the butt; but I also know the society we live in and hear it from my kids friends. “You sure work a lot” Yup, but it’s not work, it’s a passion, it’s a calling and I wouldn’t trade it for anything in the world.

IMHO, this is still the best job in the world. I could be a millionaire and I would find a way to be a volunteer and give back.

23 Likes
#42

Well put
Generations change. The iron worker of the 50s is gone and this generation would run away screaming if they had to do that. Good hard honest vocational work with meaning.
Coddling is a well put point
Part of the hiring problem and not just with fire but across the board is covid welfare. I’m not saying it wasn’t hard before but now it is just downright silly. To stay at home watch you tube and make 44000 a year on handouts is criminal and just plain lazy and a fast track to socialism.
Union bargaining is also partly to blame as you stated
Giving unlimited time off does not solve any problem, it just makes it worse for 2/3 of any staffing model.
Once upon a time we would offer to cover holidays as single ffs so the married ones could spend the holiday with family. I did that countless times. Try to do that now and you are answered with a great big I got mine, too bad.
I would be interested to hear what other agencies like FDNY and larger midwest and east coast agencies are experiencing.

5 Likes
#43

And I will say one more thing.
I have always approached my career as a parallel to the military. Get called up, deployed and do your damndest to get home with a mission accomplished. We are currently in a high op tempo war. Let’s just pause and reflect on our military brothers and sisters protecting us while we protect the tax paying public.

12 Likes
#44

BRAVO, Well said

2 Likes
#45

Most of the things that people are complaining about regarding working conditions, living conditions, and pay have been the same for decades. This isn’t a generational thing. The “kids these days” stuff is unhelpful and destroys solidarity. Do we want things to get better or remain bad in exactly the same ways for generations because everyone is required to suffer in the same ways because that’s the way it is?

Let’s say every generation has higher and higher expectations for working conditions and work/life balance. I don’t believe that for a second but let’s say it’s true. Is the solution to go on a quixotic odyssey to makes kids want less and desire suffering because it is somehow virtuous to be miserable, poorly paid, and have a strained family life?

Why even talk about this topic if this is the direction folks take it in?

7 Likes
#46

BRAVO, Well said

1 Like
#47

I personally made a great living and my family never went without anything.
I agree the USFS needs a raise.
However throwing more money at it will change absolutely nothing.

1 Like
#48

Increasing wages to match cost of living will absolutely help in many places, but it is not a panacea. Outside of urban centers, CA federal firefighters are on the same pay scale as those in Miles City, MT.

Things like assignment length, imo, need to really be looked into as well. IF the problem is as persistent, widespread, and deep as I think we all believe it is, why wouldn’t everything be on the table? Especially since fires are clearly much more challenging than they have been for about 100 years in many places in the West. The model that worked in the 20th century was built for an all-male workforce with a very defined and substantially shorter fire season. That’s clearly not the case anymore.

3 Likes
#49

Females have been excellent firefighters for many many years, what does that have to do with the discussion?
IF we are only talking about federal agencies then you are correct. But i still maintain paying more for all ik there will make no difference. CALFIRE pays a very competitive wage.

1 Like
#51

im with you on that!
very content with my USFS career and would do it again!
ps…on the line you would get a raise in elevation daily!

#52

Man, the thing about these threads is it always devolves into a b**chfest about how " things were better in the past", “worlds going to h*ll”, “youngin’s don’t respect” blah blah, “I’ll repeat the tired old trope I saw on my social feed” yadda yadda yadda. Some of the posts stay on target but to read some of the post…sigh. I heard most of these “reasons” for the same or different problems 30 years ago when I first entered the job. I suggest rereading cdfff and erapland post above and working from that viewpoint and the fire service would be able to start to address the issues.

Lastly, IMHO starting your fire fighters at minimum wage is not what I consider competitive pay. Making them work 2.5 times the amount a 40 hour worker does to make equivalent wages is not what I consider completive wages.

10 Likes
#53

I have a lot more to say, but most of it has been covered by previous posts. My observations of the current work force is that they (not all) lack a passion for the profession. Its just a job. The personal sacrifice for the betterment of the organization or the mission is lacking. The one thing that is certain, things will change, whether we think it is good or bad. The values of the current work force are very different from the work force of 40 years ago. Reality wins every time, I hope the current generation is prepared to deal if this new reality.

5 Likes
#54

True, well said!

1 Like
#55

That’s how the EMAC mutual aid system works. They send us help every summer, so when they occasionally ask, we send them something. California request help for the surrounding states much more often then we are asked to give.

7 Likes
#56

You say “constant gutting of government funding”. California has a surplus, I feel like it’s more of a mismanagement of available funding. Priorities are far more in line with securing more votes than in problem solving.

5 Likes
#57

Ca. does not have a surplus in budget dollars. It’s all a budget gimmick to try to hold the recall at bay. When you look at the debt Ca. has it’s insanity to call anything a surplus. Tell the CalFire employees who took pay cuts and many of the troops pulled the plug and retired before the cuts impacted their retirements.

5 Likes
#58

Tell all the CA “State workers” who took a pay cut. All 238,000 of them.

3 Likes
#59

And with the push back from labor of the proposed 2.4% pay increase and the removal of ICA pay for div chiefs, the increase of CF retirements and folks going to other agencies is seen daily. We are in crises as a state agency.

2 Likes
#60

And with the 8/2 mandate coming. If all the “Talk & Rumors” hold true.

KATY BAR THE DOOR AT THE PERS OFFICE.

7 Likes
#61

Just curious if it is effecting certain departments. We are having extreme difficulty getting employees to sign up for mutual aid response. Its so bad our agency is looking to get rid of the green engines(oes). I never thought I would see this happening in my 28+ career. Our the new employees just carefree? Don’t want to do it? Is anyone else having these issues or im i living in bizarre land.

1 Like