That is a sound idea just have to make sure the ventilation system on underground bunkers won’t be an issue, a fire could pull the air out and temperature differential could pull smoke in
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I am probably going to ruffle a whole bunch of feathers with what I am about to say, but I think it is definitely something that needs to be discussed.
One of the important lessons learned with the Tunnel Fire is that these urban conflagrations, is that the time spent deploying large diameter hose with master streams and tied to hydrants to save a home is not effective. Large volumes of water are going to destroy the structure and anything that requires that amount of water flow is already beyond saving. There is a difference between trying to create an anchor point with which to break the radiant and convected heat from structure to structure transfer to pouring thousands of gallons into a structure which is already not savable. There is certainly value in trying to reduce the ember cast from a destroyed structure however, there is a very significant tradeoff as the high winds are pushing the radiant and convection heat forward while the engine or truck is stuck tied to that hydrant and structure they are committed to.
There was a great deal of video show engines heavily committed to a single dwelling that was already well past saving. Additionally, there were repeated orders from Ops to the Divs to ensure that the engagement was to be saving the public as the top priority and that perimeter control was a last priority with specific instructions to not have hard anchor points.
At some point, we are going to have to rethink how our tactics may need to be adjusted to the greater good instead of saving a single structure. Like what finally took place on the Tunnel Fire, find a place to make a stand to break the intensity then engage to individual structures.
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Speaking only for myself, first unit, one structure, big wind. I would use my big water to try to drown that first house and hope I buy some time for my next in to start picking up new starts. Doesn’t always work but always better than 50 percent
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Ed3442@ great WUI tactic of Bump & Run is what worked with a Type 3, since you’re limited to your tank. Then always on the lookout for a hydrant or other supply that could be used to refill.
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As with a lot of folks on this site, we have done so much with so little for so long we can do anything with nothing
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Amen, that was the Forestry way!!!
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Swimming pools.
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I Am sure someone here knows but I think it was Buddy Epson that had a house in Malibu that had his pool plumbed with pumps to an outdoor sprinkler system in case of fire
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Many of us have used Floto pumps or portable pumps to pump out of pools, spas, hot tubs, cattle troughs etc.
Damed up and shoveled out low spots in creeks for water. Late summer water can become an issue.
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I was on the FEMA after action “committee “ for the 1991 Tunnel Fire.
As soon as we started, we had to answer to the questions as to why fire hydrants ran dry.
All these years later we hear the same story, only the misinformation is much worse due to cable news talking heads and social media
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I will try and add my 2 bits here, there is plenty of fault to go around but honestly it doesn’t begin to start here. This started with governing agencies years ago with flawed legislation and local ordinances that allowed for continuous building of structures venturing into the woodland interface.
Spacing is tight, tearing of structures above one another allowing vegetation in between,materials were not fire resistant for the allowed loads, etc, etc. This is all to say that all this load contributed to extreme fire loads and ember cast which pushes and extreme front to structure and communities at the base of said wildland urban interface leaving behind what we see today . Gov Newsome or the next in line has a duty to respond in a new way of building fire safe communities. Going back and allowing rebuilding on the same foot prints in the definition of insanity ( doing the same thing expecting a different outcome. I have some opinions on what could be done but I will hold them for sake of this going off track.
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The political inertia against restricting redevelopment in burned neighborhoods seems impossible to breach. The insurance companies are playing a larger and larger role in the conversation. I think experienced voices advising friends and family members against rebuilding is helping convince some people to relocate, but there are still huge numbers of people who want to live in places like Pacific Palisades - and I’ll admit, 7,199 days out of 7,200, it’s Paradise on earth. A lot of people are willing to take those odds, even if they know better.
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65 years since the last duplicated event is not odds…it’s insanity! Why/how do we rationalize these thoughts with ourselves ?
It truly is not worth discussing as we (;as a generalization) are not willing to give up or succom to what is a solution or what must be done!
Great idea faries,fire safe councils and grants don’t change the outcome…we have to change the outcome or just accept the consequences.
Just stop with the semantics.really!
Keyboard warriors along with the faries are exhausting wastes…the needs are simple and have been present for decades.
Talk in circles, blame in part, aftermath and discussion.
There is NOTHING to discuss. The answers have been presented by mother nature and father time. It’s a choice to ablidge or not.
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Ya, no dispute on the once in the average life span this happening. I believe one resident said he’s been there 70 yrs without a major incident. The problem is the effect an incident like this has on the rest of the population ie; what to do with contamination, future insurance issues, building prices, lives changed, et, etc. So many variables come into play that effect not only those impacted directly but also those caught in the ripple effect. P. P is the example of the wealthy who can afford to rebuild and are willing to risk it again. But areas like Altedena may not be. You right that there will most likely be no changes because we as humans are doomed to repeat our failures, but we should at least come to our senses and make changes for the greater good of our fellow friends and families.
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The ripple effects are huge. Displaced people with capital drive up housing costs in other nice, but not yet completely unaffordable places.
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Agree, thanks for replying to my post.
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Meanwhile, from a different field, comes a sobering assessment.
Global economy could face 50% loss in GDP between 2070 and 2090 from climate shocks, say actuaries
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The reason for needing insurance is that destructive events have happened in the past. Wthout any history showing a repetitive, regular cycle, it’s not credible to jack insurance prices up. The insurance companies chose to make a ton of money collecting premiums over decades. And now when they have to pay out, there’s all this talk about companies pulling out, not reissuing, or rates tripling etc.
One event doesn’t establish a pattern. Spreading increases in premiums into cities and neighborhoods with zero fire history lacks science to back it.
Hurricanes have hit the gulf states and east coast states for centuries. Fires have impacted western states for decades. And still the insurance companies act surprised they have to make payouts, and they need help from US gov, tax payers, etc…
BS!! They are just one step ahead of ambulance chasers and divorce lawyers.They knew the risks going in and gambled to make a huge buck or three and they did. Now when the payouts happen, “the sky is falling!”
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Insurance is legalized gambling. And when the House loses they finagle a way not to pay.
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