Water tender questions

General Discussion
#35

That’s an all over the map question with any number of answers

  1. What is your primary business model?
  2. What will your type of service be(Type 1, Type 2)?
  3. What will.be your budget?
  4. What Will be your long game(ROI time period)

I ask all of these questions because I know companies that are fire exclusive run by folks that are retired. They only insure vehicles for 6mo during season. They have zero employees and only run Standard or Reduced shift themselves. And they don’t rely on fire assignments as a primary or secondary source of income.

I also know construction companies that have close to 15 pieces of equipment (dozers, excavators, graders, lowbeds) that will pull their fire ready equipment off a job site, re-rent what they pulled to cover the jobsite and chase fires all season.

#36

If you click the link I provided above and then scroll down and open “regulation basics”, you’ll find a spread sheet with the engine/model year replacement dates.

2 Likes
#37

E Hoss,
Fair statement. So here it is.

  • Retired
  • Own a small farm (already have farm liability rating/commercial insurance for ag equip, etc.)
  • Already registered as SB with State (Still need DOT Reg & MC)
  • looking to gain local ag contracts/CalTrans/Private & Gov(CALFire) Water Tender jobs
  • Initially Type1: Looking to start, figure bidding/contract system out first, then grow if it works out
  • Start up- No Employees - Me only - an additional driver would be possible if need be.
  • Start up equip budget $150k - Have other resources
  • Long Game - Long Term/Compliment to farming ops - Not main income source.
    Like I mentioned, I’m not planning on making this “My Life”, but I can foresee it complimenting my farming ops and hell, I can’t stare at trees all day! Hoping to make this my retirement gig. If its year around thats great, if its seasonal, ok too.
    Thanks so much for the honest talk!
    J.
3 Likes
#38

So, if I read that chart right, if I purchase a 2010 or newer, I will be good for the next few years. I say that, because if I get a great deal on a '10 or up, I can save some money and if the biz isn’t what I thought it would be, I’m not in to it up to my ears? Thx.

#39

If you purchase a rig that old, there is a significant possibility that an emissions related failure can take you out of service and/or eat up the entire season profit in one incident.

This cannot be stated too strongly. The risk is high. This is not an exaggeration.

These systems are really awful and they get worse with age, plus, the older you go the less well refined they were. 2010 was the first year of the current emissions regimen so anything of that era is kind of an “early production” model. But anything newer is likely still very new and expensive.

I am not sure how many guys there are still riding the “fire only/1000 miles off fire” train with old, reliable trucks, but you will be competing against them as well. Their expenses are a lot lower.

1 Like
#40

@Birken_Vogt nailed it. The NO DEF SCR type of emissions system have 4,000-5,000hr life before R&R on the heavy equipment side. On the truck side that seems to be in the 300,000-500,000 mile range on OTR type trucks. Fleet trucks that get turned in on the 2nd market are typically 30-40 months old and have right at that same mileage range.
CARB has really screwed up the trucking industry in California and they don’t care about it. On fire engines, the emissions systems have had to have all “limp” safety feature removed due to life safety. I know some depts have started a 24mo R&R of the emissions systems for this very reason. On the equipment side of things, the engines will “Limp” when they approach 90% capacity and require a REGEN BURN to self clean. There really is no good answer. If you have the $150k budget, you can get a 2012/newer Type 2 and possible a Type 1. Unless you are using the Type 1 for the farm, it doesn’t pencil with the difference in pay for the Type 1 compared to the Type 2 IMHO.

2 Likes
#41

Good point on the negligible difference between the type 1 and type 2 as far as rate goes. I guess I’m hung up on the thought that a majority of call ups are for type 1’s? Am I. Or looking at that right? Honestly I like the size of the type 2’s and it does make sense for my personal operation.

1 Like
#42

IMO, one doesn’t get ordered more than another. Every incident is different. It will depend on where it will be based(unit) and what & how things burn & the lay of the land.

#43

True. That makes sense. Do you think calling the area cal fire equipment coordinator would be enlightening?

#44

ABSOLUTELY!
That person will be able to guide you through the inspection process and give you times frames for inspections. As a new supplier, the paperwork inspection process takes longer than the equipment inspection process.

1 Like
#45

Thanks! Never heard of “Hino” trucks? Where they from? Good?

#46

They are from Japan. Have had one myself and it was a good handling and running truck. Just be sure you are buying for the purpose you will use it for. Same thing for American made. Don’t buy a road truck to do an off-road job. Logging truck specs are great.

2 Likes
#47

Buy a brand of truck based on the dealer support you can get for it. If you don’t have a good dealer who can do the hard repairs and get the parts efficiently, you have an expensive paperweight. Hino is a less popular brand in the US. I have heard they are great, but it would not be fun to wait weeks to get some part from Japan while fires are going.

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#48

Good Info and great point. Thanks!

#49

Sooooo…if there were one person at CDF I should get in touch with about Water Tender FAQ’s and would actually be helpful, who would that be? I’m not talking about a “specific” guy, but like a position? CDF Equip Coordinator?

#50

Every unit has a Hired Equipment Coordinator

Www.fire.ca.gov
Click on the Resources Tab
Click on the Hired Equipment Tab

80% of your questions will be answered there and in the Supplier Participation Manual (SPM)

#51

Thanks! So, the question of the night. CA Plates - SE Plates to be specific. Can trucks be registered with SE plates no matter what the year model is or is CA CARB cracking down on these as well? Also, any thoughts on Commercial Insurance? Best Value? Easiest to work with? Which company is easiest to get inured through? Thx.

#52

CARB is seperate from CVC(California Vehicle Code).
In a nut shell

If it’s off road and has wheels or tracks, CARB regulates it with the DOOR’S Program(Dozers, Loaders, Excavators, Scrapers, Blades, Rock Trucks, Off Road Water Trucks)

If its On Road and is licensed through the CVC. CARB regulates it through the On-Highway Program(any licensed vehicle, including SE plated)

If it’s a tow behind, or portable engine greater than 25HP. CARB regulates it through the PERP Program (welder, air compressor, aggregate stacker)

There is no escaping CARB.

2 Likes
#53

Damn…ok. Thx.

#54

Believe that SE plates are also restrictioned to non-compensatory equipment and vehicles. As you would be using the SE plated vehicle in an application to be compensated, all OTR requirements would be required.