The Sunflower VMP in the western foothills of TGU has spotted in multiple areas below Colyear Springs Road. Unknown which of the RX Unit was ignited today, but there are multiple units assigned to the project.
6 Tankers, 2 type1 rotor in addition to the hawk and huey assigned to the RX, multiple augmented dispatches from the valley including a Charlie STEN and MNF resources.
My Northern Sac Valley Fire feed has this.
Not a VMP anymore. Declared a fire. Spots fires. Multiple Lats on it. They lost it.
Looks like it is quieting down on the cameras.
Agreed - AA internal chatter reporting retardant has held, fire activity has died down considerably, running out of fuel. He’ll keep all the aircraft he can while he can, tankers loading and returning.
Closest WX is PGE Dream Valley Road - just SE of incident and should see similar conditions as fire.
95F 15RH W3G7
A lot of the ground response to this area of TGU is often exaggerated early due to the reflex time of minimum 35minute code3 drive just from I5 at Red Bluff. Start them early and turn them around later.
This thing continued to punk out on them all afternoon on both heels and shoulders. 4 tankers requested back later in afternoon and rotor worked till pumpkin. AA was having a hard time figuring out what were Project’s control lines and not wanting to drop where the Project was planned to eventually burn. Right flank (west) holding at the ridge, left flank (east) had the bulk of priorities.
AA’s concerns were down canyon winds tonight stressing the left flank. Nothing alarming that I’m aware of, but the fire was certainly acting out today.
TGU and Sunflower VMP are no strangers year after year, great partnership with the stakeholders.
I hope this doesn’t make overhead gun shy about future prescribed burns. As long as no property was lost and no one got hurt, it’s just bonus acres.
Expanding on my last note regarding relationships, TGU overhead likely spent the first year of their FF1 on Sunflower, or very similar projects on neighboring land. Lots of TGU institutional knowledge in place. This year just happens to be one of the sportier years. 
With respect to the ranches and few homes out there, there is definitely the space to have bonus acres. The reflex time for augmenting ground resources adds risk.
Every RX must have some kind of budget. How does flying tankers effect that? Minor increase, double, triple, 10x?
Although not a answer to your question, engines dozers crews masticators air tankers helicopters botanists archaeologists RAWS, are all tools of the trade. And all tools must be employed to accomplish strategic and operational objectives of prescribed fire.
Although the drama and potential finger pointing of utilizing aircraft on an RX provides for shock and awe, it really is just a tool. If we step back and use optics to look at all things inclusive as tools we can understand that to accomplish scale and capacity, we can better understand and support the world of RX. ( Even when it gets a little sketchy) The best people out there are running those RXs and it has to be run on the ragged edge of prescription to accomplish goals and not make a mess.
Use the tools and capabilities that are available.
The state does not operate on a budget management cycle rather the desired outcome and end state. Once you apply a constraint like a budget corners get cut and the outcomes tend to be substandard.
Aircraft are an increased cost but when compared to the fire getting out and running for several thousand acres the cost is negligible.
I agree with the 2 above statements, however if you say “this project has no fixed budget” then the result is the project owner ends up having no money. Even the State who we know goes through fat times and thin times frequently.
There has to be an actual numerical answer to the question. Or at least something close.
it was not stated “this project has no fixed budget”, those are words you used to misinterpret what @norcal74 stated that “The state does not operate on a budget management cycle rather the desired outcome and end state.”
The project is a collaborative effort between the state and the landowner, with a common goal, whether it be range improvement, fuels reduction or community protection. While there is certainly costs associated with a project like this, it is not the factor when deciding when or how to complete the project. I applaud TGU for conducting this RX burn, as fuel conditions, resource availability and targeted outcome were in alignment. It is entirely possible that the bonus acres were actually somewhat beneficial, and in the grand scheme of things, not much of a impact monetarily compared to what was accomplished.
Burning on non governmental owned ground is different. There is a complicated matrix of processes to get to the day that the torches are tipped.
With that.. there is an estimated cost package that is put forward in the beginning of the project and then a cost per acre once the project is complete.
Aircraft time is built in.. usually rotor time.
Once the fire is out of the “box”( I use that term loosely) or at least burning conditions are not meeting the desired outcome the VMP can be declared a wildfire which then gives the unit access to the 0900 fund.
In the end… the cost of the aircraft yesterday will not break the state and fortunately it is an infrequent issue, maybe once a year that fixed wing are brought in to assist in a VMP.
And if you really want to get in the weeds of aircraft costs, depending on the contract negotiated terms, some of those flight hours may have been “free;” already paid for whether they were sitting on the ground or flying, and it just reset the clocks on various aircraft that require a proficiency flight if they haven’t flown a fire in X number of days. The initial Air Attack was a trainee platform I believe so someone got a few task book pages completed…
OV 10 $1510/Hr
S-2T $2649/hr plus retardant
S-70I $10,000/hr plus crew
CWN aircraft
Daily rate(guaranteed) is 4hr on the meter plus retardant
I’m S.W.A.G.ing the aircraft for the escape exceeded $250,000.
If the use of RotoWing was part of the VMP/VTP theses estimated costs MUST BE INCLUDED in the estimate package. So that all stakeholders understood what the project will cost.
Finally, ANY SRA FIRE that exceeds $25,000 in estimated costs requires the IC or designee to complete and submitt a cost estimate to the 0900 fund. While we all think the 0900 fund is “limitleas” it actually has lots of restrictions, requirements, and documentation to pay for things like this escape.
To say there wasn’t a budget for this project is foolish. “Nobody works for free” OT Backfill against the units 02350 budget for folks assigned backfill/overhead/etc are all hard costs.
Sadly, in 2025 to many people aren’t prudent when spending other peoples (taxpayers in this case) money.
With the risk of going off topic…
Not sure where anyone said “no budget” but rather the budget does not drive the decision making process especially once the fire is pushing or the fire effects become undesirable. I guess I do not follow your points.. are you suggesting not to augment out of fear of having to justify expenditures? As far as justifying 0900 expenditure.. yup.. and again no one has suggested that you be reckless with any funds.. simply that once the a project requires augmentation that would be coded( possibly) to the 0900 fund. Never once was questioned on 0900 expenditures.. only on timelines for submission of a packet and follow on expenditures for reimbursement. Those are things that the unit A/O deals with…. Not the IC.
In many of the projects I was involved in the landowner did have to have some investment but in reality the benefit was to the state either for strategic goals of a larger scale project or significant enhancement to the environment( post fire burn scar or rangeland improvement).
Lastly… for not being prudent when spending tax payer funds.. I have heard statements like that a lot actually. Usually from people with ties on… but never when there was a column of smoke behind their town. In nearly 40 years.. never not once did I have someone say.. I wish you brought fewer people and less things to put this out…
I appreciate the discussion here.
What I am saying is that if VMP burns get much more popular, as they should, people will look much more closely at the cost of escapes. Right now it seems like a one-off thing on this particular project, but if the projects become a more regular thing, the cost of bonus acres will have to be accounted somehow.
Out of curiosity, who will look at the cost of escapes?
Not everyone can be made happy. It( Rx ) will cost. Utilizing tools to contain RX will cost money
Again if we take the drama and remove the shock and awe… Unplugged the keyboards at the keyboard warriors let’s compare apples to apples or it can still be oranges.
Several hundred million dollars has been released to the private sector or groups for treatment and vegetation management this year alone. Littleton none of that I’ve gone to the agencies that are actually doing this feels treatment and RX work. so really what’s the cost of some equipment where aircraft if we stop being dramatic?
Okay let’s be dramatic what’s the cost of losing one home to a wildfire? Shall we call the median costs $500,000?
So put that into perspective with aircraft. Honestly! Discussion is awesome but be fair, and realistic on the discussion…IE argue BOTH sides! Not just the low hanging fruit.
I’m sure somebody at the state will, sooner or later. And they have the power to shut the whole thing down and go back to status quo.
Imo..
Wouldn’t it be neat if a true quantification of what is/has been saved by successful Rx burning AND fuels treatments/modifications could be shown to taxpayers & beancounters? Same for the years of successful suppression - what if we could show that x amount of lives, property & resources saved add up to X and have been saved because of the thing that is popular to keep kicking (100+ yrs of suppression)? That part of the discussion is foolishly ignored whenever the subject of costs AND suppression comes up.
I’m hoping - probably beyond all hope - that humans can get to a point where we dont charge each other so much for things that need to be done. Hoping that we can - if given enough time - evolve past our current model and view(s) of dealing with wildfire & fuels etc. Stealing a “bit” from comedian Chris Rock - I have come to look at us & fire much like a Lion trainer & Lion. At some point the “tame” Lion will go Lion and it’s silly for us to believe otherwise - so, when that happens we need to react differently from how we currently act and react. Humans suing each other and flipping out on one another & charging the crap out of one another when fire runs amok is something i hope “we” can someday look back on and say that was silly.. Sorry to rant, it’s just where my mind has gone following this thread & a bit too much sweet tea.. once again!