CA-VMP’s

[IAfire]

Everyone needs to understand there is a BIG difference between utilizing indirect attack where it is effective and “letting her rip” or “VMP mode”.

I’m all about utilizing indirect attack and firing as a suppression tactic but not to increase the size of the fire just because of some convoluted ideology of the greater good.

Treating an uncontrolled wildland fire during declared fire season as a VMP is not only irresponsible, it is unsafe. The tactics that people here are advocating would result in extended resource commitment time on incidents and less resources available for initial attack. The longer a resources is committed to an incident the higher the probability for an injury, simple statistics. Also once you let her rip you still have to go put line around it and mop it up, remember you guys are talking about a state fire so there will be no dry mopping and cold trailing. That type of suppression doesn’t fly for cal fire, it will have completed line and be mopped up 300-500 feet in. It would require extensive commit times.

California is a state of 40 million people and over 12,000,000 housing units. This is not the state where you can just let a fire burn without causing impact to either people, property or infrastructure. That might work in Montana or Idaho but not in California.

Let’s not forget about the past, does everyone remember Lewiston 1999? This is what happens when you do a VMP during fire season… I’m sure the residents of the 23 homes that burned down were super happy that the rancher got rid of some weeds.

Lowden Ranch RX Fire Review

[danfromord]

That was the incident where BLM got a new meaning. Burn Lewiston by Midnight.

[northbayfcret]

Two key issues that greatly hamper RX burns on private lands: liability and permitting particularly air quality permits. "Range Management burns used to enjoy exemption from liability as good as that sounds it is unfair policy to anyone who looses property or livelihood because of an escape RX. The other is the permitting process and air quality restrictions make planning and conducting RX when scheduled nearly impossible. Some type of an insurance pool is needed for RX and further streamlining of the permitting must occur before you will see meaningful RX acreages.

The Lowden Ranch escape RX was not a bad plan (although the plan was a cut and past document) It was poor execution. Because of the desire to conduct the burn in large part to get a qualification, they completely ignored the perimeters contained in the plan. The test burn far exceeded the maximum fire behavior allowed at any time much less than first thing in the morning. The FB increased throughout the day and spot fires had occurred prior to the lunch break. After lunch conditions heightened and spots took hold soon after operations began in the afternoon. A harsh lesson to illustrate what we should all know, Rx operations we stick to the plan and don’t adjust on the fly, but because we are more used to wildfire operations where we must adjust the plan on the fly, mistakes like this can happen.

[pyrogeography]

We’ve got an ongoing conversation about resource benefits and ‘Good Fire’ on Facebook. Check out the ‘Good Fire’ group if you are interested in being part of this conversation.

One current topic is how the distribution of past fires affects size of subsequent ones.

[pyrogeography]

Had a good day of burning in the foothills of Butte County today. We got started about 1200. We could have used a little wind. Barely got any wind at all, just 1mph upslope winds after 2pm.
Temps were in the 60s, and RHs were between 25-30%. Fire carried well in taller grass on south-facing slopes, and in deeper maple and pine needle litter on shady slopes. Didn’t carry very well in live oak litter or shady grass. We blacklined a 70 acre unit, and the crew will jackpot the burnable portions of the interior in next two days. Good participation from CSU, Chico Reserves, Firestorm, the Watershed Center in Hayfork, Cal Fire, Plumas Firesafe Council, Feather River RCD, Butte County RCD, UC Cooperative Extension, Deer Creek Resources, and Terra Fuego.

[Ballofire]

Perhaps this should be taken to a prescribed fire thread so apologies but…
Prescribed fire will be such a vital part of Wildland management (more than just fuels management) going forward, I would suggest that staffing burns with extra resources to further minimize escapes would be a sound investment.
We need prescribed fire very very much.

[bootstrap]

Fuels management is indeed crucial. Staff it with as many resources as you like, but if you can’t carve up the adjacent land, Murphy says that a random gust will drop an ember deep in.

We can never burn and blame nature or global warming when a fire rips under bad conditions, or, we can burn under favorable conditions. The conditions that support a good burn window might spot, but shouldn’t be laying fire over so bad we lose improvements, especially if defensible space clearance has been done.

We should recognize that spots shouldn’t but do happen and educate public.

[Ballofire]

I agree. Especially don’t burn where structures don’t have defensible space

Spots will happen. So one aspect of careful burning is to understand ember cast in real time. Keep some forces unengaged and down wind.

One of the most effective uses for small UAVs in Wildland fire --in my opinion-- would be to watch ember cast and detect spots immediately on prescribed burns. The cheapest IR cameras on a multi rotor or even hand held 50 yards downwind could understand and get the jump on spots.

[pyrogeography]

One thing I have been pushing hard in our work with Prescribed Burn Associations here in Butte County is to set yourself up for success with your unit layout, avoiding complex holding by doing away with midslope lines, starting at the top of the hill, and bringing in your neighbors so you can have units that make sense from a fire-behavior perspective.

With the amount of wildfire we have had here in the past couple years, there are a lot of opportunities to run prescribed fires into the black of a recent burn. I think we really need to go after the low-hanging fruit until we can rebuild our burning capacity and re-establish public trust around it.

[pyrogeography]

Well, it sucks their piles escaped, but on the bright side, they achieved some serious defensible space for that neighborhood, and some time in the next several years, this burn will probably save that neighborhood from being roasted by the next Carr Fire.

[burnit]

Yes, they got a firebreak…but at what cost ? Tens of thousands of dollars in suppression costs, evacuations, more fire and smoke damage claims to drive up insurance premiums and above all a loss of trust in their Fire Services.

[pyrogeography]

Yeah, I agree.

[triggerpoint]

Whatever the cost im gonna guess a absolute minuscule cost compared to the Carr fire…
Keep burning when the conditions are on your side, even when things go bad like this they are always better than having a fire later in same exact place but with the worst conditions. Push through and fight the good fight even through the ups and downs despite nay sayers. I hope the public realizes that firefighters are humans too and while we are professional and fight a very serious and dangerous fight we do make mistakes/things can go bad but its a fight worth having on our terms. If we wait we all stand to lose exponentially more

[Tanker]

Lot’s of debate about advantages/disadvantages of pile burning and Rx burns, however; it sure seems a better alternative than “managed fires” during fire season. Agree with posts that this is better than another unplanned and uncontrollable wildfire.

[burnit]

You can execute control burns and pile burning if you do so in a responsible manner. You can’t blame a predicted cold front passage on an act of God. We ( the Fire Service ) are the experts and are expected to be able to handle a simple task like pile burning without an escape.

A burn like this will only increase the hazard in 3 to 5 years if no followup is planned or carried out. Control burns are not a one and done scenario. And now, with the public scared and angry, you’ll play hell getting permission to do another burn in that area.

[triggerpoint]

I agree there is a lot of debate. I am thankful we can begin to agree here on key principles where in the past years there was a great divide here. I am not personally privy to the forecasted weather or the prescriptions weather limits that were in place in this escaped pburn but I most certainly agree they must be done in a responsible manner. If there was any negligence on our end it must be handled properly and immediately. I also Couldnt agree more about follow up burns and we put previous burns on a rotation based on fuels, type, growth and projected goals. Down here in the southeast we prescribe burn more acres than anywhere else in the country, more acres a year than are burned by all the wildfires out west combined.

As for public image/trust/insurance etc…those things change after we responsibly change and time. It will take years most likely decades of properly managed pburns to make an impact on nearly a century of no fire is good fire areas and if properly managed overall the public will see and agree with the benefits as they have in other regions where prescribed fire is a way of life. And finally naturally the overall insurance rates etc will go down as homes are not burning and mega fires decline no matter what the weather does in the future.

Currently I am deployed on the Chipola complex of wildfires in the panhandle of florida doing structure protection after some homes burned down from a wildfire. This fire is burning in dead and down fuel from hurricane michael 4 years ago and had proper prescribed fire and pile burns been utilized in this area this incident may not have ever happened. Of course this is endlessly debatable as any mitigation efforts could have resulted in an escape/wildfire.

Thank you for and open forum where we can discuss such debatable topics in a professional manner.

[norcal74]

With all do respect… Apples and Oranges. We have just recorded our driest January-February in 127 years. Our fuels and weather could not be more different than the SE. Our burn windows are changing and we have 41 million people in our state. We also have hills… and mountains.

[triggerpoint]

Thank you for your respect. Respect due back and i am thankful for your response. Very good points. Ive burned in both states for just under two decades and in many states in between. If you read my post to compare states/areas in any way you are completely mistaken. I was trying to show other places that take very serious large scale aggressive safe and prescribed times to manage land in relation to wildfires as well as an area that probably did not act aggressive enough in the same area and has to now deal with the destruction. If its going to work it will have to be massive scale all in. I will agree your point about every area has unique challenges. Every fuel laden part of our great land is fire dependant to some extent some more than others and the removal of fire is never the answer as your part of the country is realizing and i am grateful despite the devastation it has taken to realize it. Of course record droughts, temps, population growth are monumental challenges, they are also the more reason to burn under proper conditions. No matter what our differences, apples oranges dont matter. Fact stands good fire on our terms responsibly managed within a prescription will always be more beneficial than the same fire at the same location with the worst conditions. It will never be 100 percent perfect or safe and that needs to be understood still and respected. Further it will have to be aggressively pursued for decades as it has taken many decades of fire starvation get to this point and coupled with the weather conditions is dealing mega fires.

[norcal74]

Apples do matter… when you do not want them to burn. The narrative is that fire was excluded in my part of the country… and that is a false narrative… It is being pushed by people who have an agenda.
In “your” part of the country it rains off and on throughout the year. We do not have that luxury. We deal with RH’s that often remain at critical levels for weeks on end- while that is always relative to the location… it does make a difference when you consider the prescription as you have pointed out.
In California the primary reason for fire suppression decades ago… was water. We need to preserve our watersheds so that we could have drinking water. This was before we had the water infrastructure in place that we have now, where we ship water all over the state and support one of the largest agricultural industries in the world.
The current narrative being pushed by some( Zeke) would suggest that fire suppression was not tied to any particular reason that had any benefits.
We suppressed fires to harvest the timber to build America, fund two world wars and protect and preserve the privately owned lands of people who purchased that land to grow something, raise something and then harvest that resource to make a living.
We began suppressing fires because they were killing people and burning down their personal property.
We suppressed fires so that we could expand our infrastructure and produce clean energy through hydropower to power the 9th largest economy in the world( the state of California).
No one wants to talk about all of that… they just think they have it all figured out. People like Zeke have publicly made comments about our tactics and strategies and referred to modern firefighting strategies as an extension of white colonialism and related it to the extirpation of native populations…( Bring your own Brigade).
Everyone is an expert… especially when they are not the ones holding the bag. Apples and Oranges are very different…

[cdftruckfc]

I think triggerpoint is simply agreeing about the use of fire during non-declared season for prescribed fire. I don’t think he’s trying to compare fires and fire season’s or who has the largest stick, well you know what I mean. You may not mean to be at all, but in reading your responses and comebacks, from just another hosedragger, your responses make it appear your being a stick! Let’s just have an easy conversation and just be happy while we can. Cause, it’s going to get angry real quick once things start burning, days off are canceled, no relief, wife’s mad ( especially if your Cal Fire), and on and on. Stay safe in 2020!