They’re in prison for a reason. The money they make should go towards the families they affected. They’re getting credit time served.
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Pretty sure the $200/day to rent a crew is ancient as well.
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While I agree.. if you break a law and are found guilty you owe a debt to society. But does that mean you are banished forever? The program was initially meant to take in non violent criminals and put them into a less institutionalized environment, teach them a work ethic and some job skills and perhaps give them some confidence so that once they have completed their sentence they can return to society.
The pay for them is a part of compensating them for their work and demonstrating the work-reward cycle.
The current state of prosecutions is not supporting lower level offenders and we have moved into people who have committed more serious crimes.
I guess it is a philosophical question.. when your kid breaks a rule in the house do you banish them to their room forever.. or do they serve their sentence and then you have a talk about decision making and choices and the importance of accepting responsibility for their actions.
I would also suggest the difference between anyone incarcerated and everyone else is that they got caught.. no one is perfect.
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Trying to be as respectful as i can be - it’s easy to read into this thread that feelings are strong and run deep on at least 2 differing perspectives. Trying not to bring forth more trolls if u kno what i mean..
For what its worth..
I’ve found that over the years i’ve developed my own strong personal feelings towards this subject and it has drastically changed from my rookie days to now - it was shaped/informed by my direct experiences working around/supporting & ordering calfire crews to my incidents. Also from working with and for some of the humans that have come through that privileged program and have since risen thru the ranks in Fed, State & Local agencies - as firefighters/1st responders etc.
With that said and with regards to how much pay & where that pay should go & how the system works or not to re-pay their “debt” - i’d 100% appreciate hearing from those individual who’ve been there done that - as in the former incarcerated responders & those who directly push/supervise them on the fire lines.
I’d like to know if / how the work they do (work that most others do not want any part of btw) on and off of the line counts for more than just serving a sentence/doing time to repay their debt to the justice system - or not. Do the due’s get re-payed or not? Should the $ earned by inmates be adjusted over time - why/why not? Should the $ earned go back into the justice system for re-payment when the crime committed is DUI and/or drug related? Are burglary, theft crimes repaid outside of the camp program or are earnings off-set until debit is repaid?
Not that it maters - those are some of the facts/opinions/experiences that i’d really appreciate hearing about & hearing it from those that have worn orange or supervised them would be bueno imo..
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I dont think you have apples to apples there. But
Pay is not the reward the day for a day is I believe we already pay for their incarceration and a day off your sentence is something they should learn to appreciate more than money they are likely to use for nefarious reasons. Now if you’re arguing their earnings can be attributed to something other than their own self interest maybe I’ll follow along.
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Why is pay not part of the equation. If you only see the penal system as a way to punish and not rehabilitate people.. then yes.. make it crappy and just hope that when people come out the other end they figured it out. Or.. you can do what you can to demonstrate the power of accepting responsibility..the power of pride in earning a wage for the work you do. That is how people lift themselves up.. there has to be a light at the end of the tunnel or there is no reason to walk down it.
It is a basic tenant of leadership. To get people to follow you.. you must have influence over them. There are a lot of motivators in the world.. money is one of them and in fact probably in the top one or two. So.. once again.. if we are only interested in managing a recurring penal colony with repeat offenders… then just make them break rocks. If you want to try and find a way to get even 10% of them not to repeat offend.. give them a chance to have some self respect.. and pride and demonstrate that they can earn a living.
In my 30 year CF career.. I worked with several people who were formerly on hand crews. To a person the 10 or so I worked with were some of the best FFers I ever worked with. They made a mistake.. took ownership.. made a decision to change and are now contributing members to society.
I get it.. it is cool to be mean again..Just remember.. you are just one mistake away from being on the other side.
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Bruh. If you’ve never been in the program, well. Pay is not the issue, but if increased pay starts to pay the costs of incarceration then maybe.
Always told my guys, I’m going to treat you like firefighters first because we depend on each other to survive. If you prove otherwise, we’ll go that route. And also we’ll handle issues “out there,” not through gigs and paperwork.
I also tought “embrace the suck” because it doesn’t matter what side of the freedom your on, firefighting and project work is never fair. My guys were devoted, strong and unstoppable. During Ishi qualifying, we were at 7 guys. We beat a 13 man crew for hike time and sqft line per man cut.
On fires, my guys cut 3/4 of perimeter compared to that 13 man crew. Again, its not about money. Its about praise-rewards, constructive criticism and building up men.
Many have never had some one say, “You’re doing great!” or, “Thank you for the hard work today. You saved houses, people, or made a difference.!” “It’s not about where you’ve been, its about where your going.” “When you get outta here, hold your heads up, you’ve done your due to your team and society.”
Many went to Camarillo Camp to learn more. One guy went straight outta camp to a fed helitack crew and now works for Cal Fire.
Money may be a motivator, but usually not for the right reasons in this case. It doesnt change the individual.
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Im willing to bet that number would not have increased (the few that were great coworkers) if they were paid more while you were there.
Sadly you’re still not addressing the fact that the day they recieve as service on top of the one they are living in reduced sentence is a Huge motivator. Thats a gateway to half your time reduced.
Its not mean to offer that plus enjoyable food and drinks along with many other privileges not afforded to regular inmates. Not to mention earning skills doing something noble and learning comradery with fellow men.
Absolutely they should be treated with respect so long as its reciprocated on the line, I always speak to various inmates in passing ask them how the work is going and occasionally chat the weather.
Respect is huge, skills are huge, reduced sentence huge, and Ive known lots of them after they make their way back into fire, after serving time I agree some really stand up men, others not so much.
I dont know they have earned much more than that in my book until they serve their time and prove consistency.
I dont think any of that is harsh or mean.
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The Camp Program of CalFire / CDCR is considerably diminished from when I supervised Crew 3 at a new “expansion” camp in the late ‘80s / early ‘90s. Low level inmates were plentiful given the “War on Drugs” ( many of Crew 3 claimed to be Nancy Regan’s POWs as they couldn’t “Just Say no to drugs”) and being plentiful inmates were inexpensive.
On a fire the cost of an inmate fire crew was relatively high given the custodial cost of CDCR.
I wonder now with the fed minimum wage plus the cost of custody 24/7 is a CalFire / CDCR Fire Crew Strike Team out distancing a Federal Type 1 Crew ST?
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As far as pay as a motivator, in my experience the inmate firefighter pay was mostly mentioned as a few hundred dollars of “Gate money” which they would parole with. It was also intrinsically linked to the Camp Canteen cost of Bugler tobacco, Tapatío and Cup O’ Noodles.
The biggest motivation I heard was simply the Camp environment being so superior to being in the joint.
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Never an inmate or worked for CF, but I worked with lots of the crews from various camps on “grade” projects. On the surface, it’s not inaccurate to say that all crews are the same (same potential more or less), the only difference is who’s running them (the Fire Captains). Worked with some great captains who were true leaders of their crews (including some female captains that were fantastic), and a few captains that were still learning I guess.
Never any discussion of repayment to society, I know that independent of their work, the cost to keep a fellow in camp is a small fraction of keeping them behind a wall, so there’s that.
I never met any “innocent” inmates, but one Captain told me, about half the guys on a crew are there because, for a male aged 20-25 years old from their neighborhood, this is where they end up for one reason or another. No bleeding hearts, but pretty factual. The conservation camp crews were a fantastic resource for many state and local operations to get inexpensive labor for accomplishing needed work, and I always felt that the guys on the crews got a lot more out of it than being locked up in a “real” prison.
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“Bruh”.. correct never worked at a camp.
I would just say that if you are frustrated with how things go with recidivism..
Keep trying to do the same thing year after year and expect a magical change in outcome.
I am guessing if you plug that into Chat GPT you will get a definition….
Negotiate your contracts! Dont try to short care the system.
As someone currently running crews, I’ll say this and try to keep it as least political as possible. Today’s incarcerated individuals are not the same as they were 10 years ago or more. Besides getting time off there sentence there is basically no other incentive besides little bit better living conditions to get them to volunteer to come to fire camp. I mean they issue tablets with video calling capabilities in prison now why would they want to come to camp to work harder when you can sit on your rack all day and video call your family. As much as the increase in pay isn’t wanted by all I hope it will help with our low crew numbers that we currently struggle with through out the state. For those against the pay increase the pay increase is only for fires and not for move up and cover or grade assignments.
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