I’ve just been confused these past couple of years being from Region 5 and was wondering if anyone had any answers. I’ve seen these past couple of years where the big departments down south (contract counties) will get big fires later in the year and call for the world, but when we get our big fires (Mendocino complex biggest one in ca history) it’s hard to get some of the big contract counties to send us anything except OES. Now I understand that some of the departments send resources and I applaud them for that because that’s what you sign up to do in this job. But the other ones don’t or it’s just fobs here and division there. Does anyone have any answers? Just coming from a fed up tax payer.
Lots of type 1’s from So. Cal on the Carr. Could it be that the Mendo Complex needed a lot of Type 3’s and Type 6’s ? The Ferguson sucked up lots of equipment. Then the Holy broke sucking up even more. Just a SWAG…
There are many different things that can effect this. For one, the more OES equipment a department gets, the less of their own they can send out, due to staffing limitations. Staffing shortages at the home unit may also be a factor. Contract counties may be called out as 9000 series st through Cal Fire or by region number 5000 series for region 5 through the X box side. It used to be common for Kern to have our up to 3 strike teams plus overhead and IMT members out. Now with OES Type 1, 3’s, WT, and command vehicle, it’s pretty normal to only send the OES equipment plus one ST. We also have been dealing with a FF shortage for the last couple years, which has hindered staffing and availability. Also as mentioned above, the type of engines each department has 1, 3, 6’s have to match the outstanding orders.
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Your confusing contract counties with OES mutual aid. While ORC, LAC, VEN, SBC, KRN and MRN are contract counties for CALFIRE, they are still players in the states mutual aid program. When the fires put in requests for Strike Teams, they are placed to the that counties Op area and the process begins, if it is not a CF or Fed fire. IF it is a SRA fire and they are requesting type III’s, CF can add to their bushel of engines, crews, dozers, and water tenders and fill with those CC resources. They are cheaper than local government’s type III’s and add to the resources CF can to draw from. It makes good financial sense to use those resources before going to local government resources. And as 2moretws said, they become 9000 series identifiers. The same goes for type VI’s. You are seeing them a lot more on fires to be used in multiple roles. Perimeter control, patrolling a dozer line, firing, and patrolling new line being put in. A lot of CA fire agencies are now buying type VI’s, hoping CF or FS will order them as an op area Strike Team. New source of revenue for those agencies that purchased them as well as protecting their area of responsibility.
Those contract counties wear multiple hats. The serve and protect the counties area’s they are paid to protect, both their own counties land and to CF to protect the SRA within those counties lands. But how much rolling stock they send out before they reach their “draw down” is a difficult decision they must deal with, sometimes on an hourly basis.
Now the next question is which resources to send. That falls on the OES duty officer once those resources, Type I’s, III’s and VI’s are requested that are not coming from CF or a FED agency. Again, money plays an important part in that decision making. OES resources are cheaper than local government resources. So, the general plan of OES is to put all the OES “green” resources on the road first, to save the state money. That makes financial sense. OES also can go direct to CF or the FEDs and use those resources if they are available, again cost savings. Once the big green machines are emptied out, then the OES duty officers will start asking for local government type I’s, III’s and VI’s. Now if this is immediate need, then the closest resources are supposed to be sent out, regardless of agency.
So, when OES region II and III started getting fires, OES and CF/FEDs stated competing for resources in a sense. CF was putting their resources on the road and then started taking the CC resources, under their ability to hire them as a state resource. At the same time, OES was placing requests for resources to those same counties, fully aware what CF was doing and working with them to accomplish the mission. It is what it is, trying to help those counties with fires, both agencies not trying to suck the counties dry, leaving enough resources to fight a new fire in their communities. And remember under the CFAA agreement, both CF and OES can go to FS/BLM/NPS/FWS/BIA for resources to help on non-federal areas.
So, those counties were not hoarding resources, they were in fact trying to serve several masters at the same time. As an example, LACoFD was trying to assist CAL FIRE with dozers and crews strike teams under their Contract County hat, while also trying to meet their requirement to staff a OES type I and III strike team, and fill LACoFD Strike Teams at the same time. And don’t forget all those overhead that departments have on Teams, both CF and FED. So sometimes agencies must say no for a while, until they can get those reserve engines staffed and meet their agencies responsibility to protect their contractual responsibilities. Then they can begin to share those resources the can.
Those contract counties, or any agency was not trying to withhold from those fires up North. They were just trying to share where and when they could and still protect the “home front”. It’s easy when you are a small one or two engine department. It’s crazy when you touch state land, federal land and are trying to help everyone in CA at the same time.
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I started with the feds ten years ago up north and we always had a bunch of agencies helping us out from all over with our crazy fires.
But more and more I’ve been seeing less yellow and red resources
We’ve been dealing with these massive fires like the Carr fire and Mendo complex which is the largest fire in California history. With that being said, we do appreciate it when county resources from down south in CA can send us something other than OES (you should know what I mean by that)Can someone please tell me why no one wants to drive up and help and make money when the southern part of the state is more quiet than a morgue?
Just because its quiet down south doesnt absolve it from risk.
If its hot up north with active fires we still have to protect to some extent the stuff that hasnt burned yet down south just like the other posters have said.
As far as contract large counties go. Lets look at LAC. 23 gray book funded engines. They had 5 strike teams out. That exceeds the gray book staffing and still they are required to protect SRA in LAC.
I think everyone is giving what they can. Ive already sent the OP pms on this topic because Its hard to see this topic go on without any real evidence or numbers to go with it.
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Remember these departments have multiple missions and roles including service to the local taxpayers that fund them. We would all like to come help, but need to provide service other than wildland fire suppression.
2 cents
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Brushmonkey, as a fellow taxpayer, it frustrates me to see the state blow so much of our money on high-dollar municipal resources from SoCal, and not use more Fed resources that are much cheaper, closer in proximity, and who’s primary focus is wildland Fire. Not trying to stir the Red/Green pot, but the friction between the two is getting old, and the taxpayers are the ones that suffer for it.
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One reason the contract counties are not sending people to fed fires is because the feds haven’t paid for last years fires so the counties are short on their budgets and can’t afford to send them to fed fires and not get paid again.
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That issue is a CA fire service issue. It is not limited to the 5 contract counties. And in talking to my friends in the southern 4 CC, they are not UFTing any orders because of the Feds not paying. Not sure who is saying this and why would only the CC’s be doing this. Makes no sense.
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we got paid. I think everyone got paid.
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We’ll for my county all the chiefs said we haven’t gotten paid so we’re not sending any equipment to the feds. That’s all I’ve heard
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We were in the same boat, we are still owed just under 2 mil from last year, which was about 10% of what our total billing was. Our department had the same stance at the beginning of the summer, no fed fires, except IMT members. Purely about reimbursement times, and the hardship it causes to the budget at the end of the fiscal year.
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Dirtnap,
Seriously? Feds were stripped clean,
The Eel fire on the mendo was initial attacked by beverly hills, santa monica, la county etc. there were no other closer forces. I dont know how you can put on this board that the feds or state are choosing to use local govt forces over their own. They only do so when they run out.
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If your departments have not been reimbursed you need to reach out to OES.
I can assure you the Forest Service isn’t sitting on any bills.
You can private message me if you need assistance figuring out who to reach out to. I’m pretty sure this forum isn’t the appropriate place to resolve those types of issues…
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When you start seeing less you have to look at changes in aid agreements and other issues. As for being slow socal did have the craston fire then the holy fire and there was also the Ferguson fire. We had kern covering SNF and vnc covering some of fku. A whole lot of jockeying going on. This week On 2 trips to los banos I’ve seen a bunch of socal equipment rolling heading back south.
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Your OES Region Fire Coordinators should be all over making sure that your departments are getting reimbursed. If you’re having funding issues from last year, you should be all over them to make sure that they have all the paperwork from the fires, and that your pencil pushers in Finance have passed on all the backfill and OT paperwork.
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That’s what I’m getting at brushslasher I’ve noticed less heavy equipment of the red and yellow up north the past couple of years. Where when I first started the red and yellow were always up here. I know they get funded by calfire but… hey man those guys smash, and nothing against our guys but they go direct and have some balls on brush. From first hand expierence they should be up here helping us with their 8’s and 6’s but I never see them up here?
Could it because OES has built more T1’s and T3’s in the recent years and are placing them out as soon as possible to LG agencies? LAC and LFD both have a ST of T3’s that they staff for OES now, plus the OES T1’s they have always staffed. Between LACoFD’s OES T1, OES T3 strike teams, and their regular engines and patrol ST’s they send out, that is a lot of rolling stock on the road from one agency. And LAFD is now buying T3’s, based on CF’s Model 34, so that will increase their resources available to play as well. Maybe that is why you are not seeing as much red fire trucks for LACoFD and LFD as before?