Crew swaps ????

So with these covid times, are crew swaps still happening? I heard they are not going down this year?

Crew swaps are still happening.

My experience with crew swaps is with local government engine strike teams. When the personnel on a strike team need to leave but the strike team is still needed on the incident, the personnel can be swapped out with new personnel from that department.

The swap typically occurs during a planned rest period so that the strike team can stay on the same work/rest rotation on the incident. This often happens when the personnel are “timing out” (14 or 21 days) or when personal issues arise.

Edit: This was originally posted in response to a question about what a crew swap is. The post containing that inquiry appears to have been deleted.

Ahhhhhh, vacation our only saving grace…

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Indeed TF. LG folks think differently than seasonal too. LG (esp. Type I folks) plan summers to do traditional off-time things like vacations and weddings. So, we sign up for STEN, take the initial assignment, and then swap folks out as needed if approved by the IMT if members of the responding crew had other plans ready to be acted on.

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Not sure what you mean in your explanation.
Type 1 LG folks plan vacations to get swapped out on a strike team? I must assume you are referring to local type 1 engines? The need to relieve personnel because of scheduled vacation on a strike team ordered under CFAA is the fiscal responsibility of the sending agency. Under the agreement, the requesting agency will pay for an entire crew swap every two weeks, or as negotiated by need .

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CFAA allows for a compensable crew exchange after 7 days on an incident.

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Then that is a change in recent years.
It used to be 14.
Softies

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From the current approved and executed CFAA.

Clauses A-38 and A-39 authorizes the reimbursement of personnel and transportation costs incurred to replace California Fire and Rescue Mutual Aid System Agency personnel committed to extended assignments under this Agreement. Personnel under this Agreement are to be available a minimum of seven (7) days excluding travel (portal-to-portal) before needing replacement, regardless of the number of assignments. This exhibit lists the procedures necessary for a local jurisdiction to follow before reimbursement for their costs will be processed for rotation of their personnel. These procedures only apply when the emergency apparatus remains assigned to the incident but the personnel are rotated. The procedures are:

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I do remember a few years ago an amendment being negotiated to the agreement.

Traditionally, the CFAA allows for a swap a personal after seven days “working”, and while the “Incident” would pay after 7 days, there is no guarantee and crews are committed for 14. So if you leave to respond to an incident, and arrive in base camp but are not assigned on the IAP until the following Operational Period, that is when the time starts. Approval for a crew swap at anytime, must be approved by the OES rep for LG (the Incident). Traditionally, crew swaps are refused at 7 days if there is reasonable expectation of pending Demob, within the next couple of Op periods. As part of the NWCG COVID-19 recommendation guidelines released this spring, my understanding is that approval for crew swaps are not going to be approved until 14. So when you roll out expect 14 not 7. This may not always be the case, but… To quote Pirates of the Carribean “ their more like guidelines, actually”.

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Well said.
It was a little sensitive a few times on my incidents when we and OES would deny relief when the glide path planned demob in 2 days.
Make no mistake, this culture has spread within CALFIRE with this generation. I don’t want to start another discussion, but this generation is not like ours in the past. We would fight for assignments and stay as long as needed.

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Agree, you can see this throughout our culture in a whole and world. I think about those long before us and how we have it so good now, with equipment, technology, training, benefits etc.
“The best thing a old firefighter can teach a new fire fighter is how to be an old fire fighter”

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@firedog1, I get what you are saying. But, small LG agencies have small personnel pools. Some agencies pick their vacations, plan weddings, buy plane tickets, in the previous year. So, there can be a significant hit if those plans are denied. So, we sign up and respond, which is critically important if immediate need. LG Type I Engines are not always the most economical for these missions.
Now, look at the rosters in many IAP’s and you will see lots of LG personnel on the line. Many of the FEMP’s and the MEDL on the Apple are LG folks. We supply SOFR’s and FOB’s and DIVS as well. So, point is, send the Type I “pavement princesses” to take care of initial structure threats, then send em back home when that mission is done and let the Charlies and Golfs do the work after that.

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I always plan for 21 and tell my crews plan for 21. If it’s less so be it. I like the crews and leaders who want to get out of there in 7 or as early as possible because DIVS remember. They go again and wonder why they are in staging while others are getting to work.

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Folks, let’s stay on track with this, the original question was whether or not crew swaps still occur in today’s COVID world. This is NOT a debate about today vs. the “Golden Age” of ST assignments. This is not going to turn into a debate over how days on assignment necessary. The CFAA Agreement is extremely clear on that particular point.

So, back to the original topic, ya?

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Before this digresses too much farther… It’s important to differentiate that “Better” Is subjective, while “Different” is objective. Having spent over 30 years in the fire service, there have, of course, been countless improvements in both technology and response management. Stating that things are different in this generation, should be seen as being better. It’s not a statement to demean or fracture the relations between new guys and FOGS. We were all Newbies once and hopefully all will become old Retired Smoke eaters one day. There is enough division in this country as it is right now. It isn’t about if the newer guys want to work, but the initial post asked about crew swaps. The most effective weapon to combat frustration and poor moral is information. If you have good intel and accurate information to base your expectations your going to be more content and work better. If you think you’re going home the “next day” and keep getting reassigned, discontent is inevitable.

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Ya was referring to crew swaps when timed out at 14. We house oes 1880c and was wondering if the crew swaps were going down this year if needed. Not talking about vc,
Lol

OkDuring our last op area meeting with CalOES regarding crew swaps regarding LG was that there was only 1 or 2 counties left that had 7 day agreements with the state. Meaning that unless there is exigent circumstances for a need to swap, plan on 14 days (+ a day of travel on each end). Sometimes it depends on the IC and who the Arep, but the thought that was discussed was that unless it’s something crazy ( like the Thomas or Ferguson) usually after 14 days things tend to be winding down. They would rather get units home to rehab (even for a day) and reset the clock so that if a unit is redeployed. The clock is reset.

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Just so we are clear on the 7 day swap issue. Just because you are there for 7 days doesn’t mean you are entitled to a crew swap. It has to be approved by the incident commander and it has to be justified (ie your Department has a MOU). As a DMOB unit leader for one of the type 1 teams for the past several years I have yet to have an IC approve the pay for a crew swap after 7 days. It’s only happened a few times after 14 days and that’s was because we were at PL 5 and at draw down for that particular resource, a replacement was requested and UTF through IROC (formally ROSS). The CFAA just allows for that in unusual situations.

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