I dunno. My impression is that forward progress was stopped. No retardant that I’m aware of, or whether it was wrapped in handline. It was 6am so I presume it had laid down overnight and they were calling it under control. There were some evacs already in place, but I dunno if, or where, any were lifted prior to the blow.
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Yeah i dont think it would have mattered with a dozer line around it with 80mph. Any little embers left would be picked up so easily and cast down wind and off to the races again. A real tragedy.
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The Lahaina fire has now surpassed the Camp Fire in death toll.
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If you’ve ever done the cow pattie shuffle for hours, you know mopup looks solid until wind hits it. There’s just no way to predict rekindle when you’ve worked it and worked it.
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Mop-up is when you really need InfraRed. And not the kind from 10,000 feet or even 400 feet.
It doesn’t even need to be a camera, although those are helpful.
A $30 IR gun from the hardware store will do in a pinch.
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I enjoy this forum most of the time. Although I believe there is a time to analyze and learn, I am not sure that time is now. This was a fire that very few have encountered. Very easy to sit back, behind a computer looking at maps and do the should of would have could haves. As far as a a firefight there was little to nothing that could have been done to change this outcome. 80” mph wind with structure to structure ignitions that act like a blow torch. Until you have experienced a Camp, Carr , Dixie, Thomas, Kincade or any Numerous other major wind driven fires it is best to acknowledge sometimes Mother Nature owns us. My hearts and prayers go out to the families, communities and Firefighters who will have to live with this for years to come.
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@2centsmarter i am not seeing anyone monday morning quarterbacking. It all sounds like empathy to me.
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[quote=“pyrogeography, post:143, topic:24817”]
don’t think the species is the big deal, just the changes in culture that have taken active management out of the picture. Whether you’re talking about neglected timberlands or abandoned pineapple plantations, the absence of management has increased hazards. I think it’s worth talking about because a lot of people just want to yell CLIMATE CHANGE and leave it at that, when there’s a lot more to what’s driving these big fires.
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Good copy! I see where you’re going - i get it! Agree 100% I also feel & see that 100% rush to blame climate - it’s beyond worrisome…
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They were in the mop up stage from a fire the day before. They had one brush rig monitoring it due to extreme weather conditions. Had to redeploy most resources to the UpCountry fire, that was coming down into Kihei with 80 mph gusts. The UpCountry fire is the largest fire on the island, presently burning, but the wind shifted and actually created a fire break on itself protecting Kihei.
When the call came out from the patrol engine on scene, the travel time was over an hour for resources to be able to move that way from the 3 other fires. Probably nothing they could have done, even if they had a full alarm on scene with those winds of 35 sustained and gusts of 80.
Between the blackout conditions, the multiple Powerline and power poles down as well as numerous trees across the road and ontop of vehicles, it would be extremely challenging just moving around without fire around you.
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Just wondering… why no large fires in California so far this year?
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Not unusual for a major fire in CA to have between 4000 and 6000 personnel assigned. I believe they had 100. At the height. Additionally this fire went from the ignition spot to the coast in 2 hours. Already in the urban interface. Only thing to do is rescues and evacuation no firefight what so ever could have been done. Hats off to all who responded and gave it there all to the best of there abilities while Mother Nature showed you who was boss.
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Going through the Google Street view on a couple of streets and the boundary road had lots of mimosas bordering it like a hedge in some cases right next to homes which leads to a very quick transition even without the high winds. Mimosas are an ember cast nightmare because of the seed pods and the flowers. The big properties around the town are owned by a few housing development and land management companies and as many of us know getting them do fire maintenance can be very hard just like on government lands.
Mowers are cheap and grass is easy to maintain. Something needs to change because this has happened way too often across the country and now it’s hit Hawaii. The solutions are there but the commitment isn’t and fuels reduction projects alway become an afterthought until the next fire threatens or destroys nameAtown usa.
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I don’t know much about Maui or Lahaina and their Fire Dept. or District. What I do know is Good Mop Up is something that is taught. I was lucky and my Captains were mop up drill sergeants. Cow pattie shuffle made me laugh. My Captains would make us use a bucket and a shovel mopping up cow patties. Saves water and put them out after you submerge them and then a good boot stomp. Taught my FF’s and my Handcrew to take the glove off and feel for heat in Duff, roots, tear apart punky logs etc.That is how I was taught. We did an lot of mop up with back pumps and hand tools running crew. . 5 to 10 mph wind will bring smoke back to life and 80 mph is just screaming. I feel for the FF’s and civilians on that island.
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@Pob904 yup ya nailed it. This is not surprising at all considering the hand they were dealt.
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There are several potential reasons for that.
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Down here is SoCal we haven’t had any significant wind events (the Santa Anas) yet to push a fire beyond the capabilities of IA or Extended.
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On the fires we’ve had, fixed-wing and helicopter assets are requested early and often. They are boxing in the fires quickly with retardant before they get bigger, allowing ground personnel in to do their work.
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California has also had one of its wettest winters in quite awhile.
It’ll happen sooner or later. Either due to wind-driven fires moving quickly, or an increased number of starts that’ll spread the air assets too thinly. Just my opinion.
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I see lots of talk about mop up. I think we all agree in the importance of mop up. Tactical patrol. Containment line etc. I don’t know much about the Maui FD either. But I’ve heard their normal staffing is 10 engine companies. Seems they probably do the best they can with what they have.
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So its the weather…and its large scale effects on the environment. The three main drivers of wildland fires are fuels, weather and topography. We can mildly effect topography, we can reduce fuels but the weather is the one thing that is beyond our control.
If you cannot see that our environment is changing and the climate is what is driving that- then you will continue to slam into a brick wall.
The problem with fuel reduction is that it grows back. Its a treadmill that never stops. Areas around the Camp Fire have burned 3 times in the last 20 years, some of them twice in 10 years and it still did what it did.
There is money to be made at fuel reduction and it is the easy low hanging fruit that makes people feel good and makes a lot of money for the people doing( or managing) the work. There is a current bill working its way along that would bring prevailing wage to all fuel reduction projects. That would increase the cost of treatment by a factor of 3. That will effectively shut down the process and significantly reduce the number of acres treated.
Changing our impact on the climate will take a sacrifice by all of us. Pretending that science does not exist and denying that people who have spent decades becoming experts in the fields of paleo climate science are wrong is ridiculous. Continue to look down…
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I will rephrase my question… as in 2019… why no big fires. If we have magically reached a tipping point of fuel build up that is causing these fires… then why are they not happening right now?
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Think back to Oakland Hills fire in 89, same thing
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